[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[OmegaNovaios]

I love this write up, you have clearly spent alot of time thinking this through. But in all honesty, I don't want to play FF11-2. I think you did a great job in devising this, but I don't want to have Dark Knight, Ninja, Ranger, etc. And SE promised this game would be drastically different from FFXI, so while the basic premise of you system works, I don't think they'd use Soul Eater, Arcana killer, etc. But what they could do is use a FF: Tactics approach. I believe gladiator and archer were DD classes in the gameboy FF tactics. So it appears they have already taken a tactics approach to FF14. So instead of ranger, Dark Knight, etc. they could go fighter, assassin, sniper, sage, time mage, etc. (whice are tactics named classes).
This would work well with your design, if you wanted your "Gladiator to focus on brutal aoe and single target sword attacks, they would specialize in the "Fighter" title. If you wanted your conjurer to cast heavy DD spells with few support spells, they'd master in "Sage." If you wanted your Thaumaturge to be specialized in time based magic (Slows, gravities, Stop, paralyze, haste type spells) they'd take a Time Mage title. So on and so forth.
I really think you have an excellent idea, lets just implement different stuff than was in FF11, if they used your model, with a FF tactics theme, this game would rock so hard.

*Edited for spelling and grammar errors*

Sorry for the double post. Honestly it doesn't matter what they name the jobs/titles as long as the system itself is implemented. Personally I wouldn't mind either way, this system just greatly appeals to me.

[Carpe]

SE promised this game would be drastically different from FFXI, so while the basic premise of you system works, I don't think they'd use Soul Eater, Arcana killer, etc.

I think it was during the Tanaka period that they really wanted to differentiate FFXIV from FFXI. I think Yoshi-P has said in interviews that the previous developers had tried to make the game purposefully too different from FFXI and in some ways it was unnecessary.

The "Soul Eater", "Arcana Killer" I know make this look like a FFXI close in some ways, but I just thought I'd use abilities that people were familiar with to illustrate the idea. They can/should re-do and rework these abilities for this game. I know it looks this is literally taking FFXI and throwing it on top of the armory system, but they don't have to design the titles exactly the way they were in FFXI.

But what they could do is use a FF: Tactics approach. I believe gladiator and archer were DD classes in the gameboy FF tactics. So it appears they have already taken a tactics approach to FF14. So instead of ranger, Dark Knight, etc. they could go fighter, assassin, sniper, sage, time mage, etc. (whice are tactics named classes).
This would work well with your design, if you wanted your "Gladiator to focus on brutal aoe and single target sword attacks, they would specialize in the "Fighter" title. If you wanted your conjurer to cast heavy DD spells with few support spells, they'd master in "Sage." If you wanted your Thaumaturge to be specialized in time based magic (Slows, gravities, Stop, paralyze, haste type spells) they'd take a Time Mage title. So on and so forth.

By "specializing" do you mean that Gladiator would become Fighter? Would Fighter also be an option for other classes like Marauder and Pugilist? The system in this thread is just trying to keep the combinations of Title/Weapon as open as possible so people still have a lot of choices for customization.

You could still unlock titles in a FF Tactics style in this system. Like maybe it would make more sense that you couldn't unlock the Title of Black Mage until you learned some of these "core" Black Mage spells from THM and CON. I still think there should be a threshold like have to have atleast one job @ lvl 20 to unlock a title, but maybe having requirement that needed to be met (based on certain skills that had to be learned vs. having to have certain ranks in certain weapons), that way someone couldn't say level a Marauder to 20 and do a quest for White Mage title without having any White Mage abilities to use! If that's what your're suggesting, I think that would be a cool idea.

I personally would like them to bring back those traditional FF names, but if they basically had the same thing but translated a different way to fit the "mood"/"world" of Eorzea, that wouldn't be a deal breaker for me.

[Mr_Gyactus]

So there have been a lot of ideas floating around the forums about how to incorporate traditional FF jobs into FFXIV. One of the main reasons people want traditional jobs is that they feel right now there isn't a very strong sense of class uniqueness or role identification in the game. For example, a Conjurer is a hodgepodge of different skills that can be used for nuking, buffing, and and/or healing.

Yes and not.
The main reason people want traditional jobs is because people don’t like changes.
A conjurer is an healer, a buffer and a DPS, all depends how you play it. However, you are not the best healer if you don’t take sacrifice for example, and for dps purpose you need Bio/Dia/Poison and various buffes from different jobs.

We need more Class Uniqueness and Role Identification
As the game is right now there is no way for a player playing a Conjurer to let other people in their party know what type of role they want to play. Sure, you could create a specialist class (ex. healer/buffer) by mixing abilities from various classes, but it's hard to identify with vague class hybrids the way that we were able to identify with clear-cut classes (classes filled with a rich tradition of lore) like those in FFXI and previous FF games.

You need, Not “we”. There is a simple way to communicate with others. It’s called “chat”. If I want DPS I can say “I’m a DPS”; If they want an healer, they can ask “do you want heal?”
In previous games what? In ff7 we use materia, everyone could heal or dps. In FF8 we use summons, and absorb magic. In final fantasy10 there are spheres, and everyone can do everything. In FF12 same with that chess-like board. Final Fantasy is a system where everyone can do everything, it's just a matter of time.

This idea puts FFXIV classes on the same plane as FFXI jobs, which doesn't make sense with the current armory system because in FFXIV class=”weapon skills”, and in FFXI class=”job”.

Not really. Gladiator, Conjurer, Thaumaturge are classes. They can do a “role”. I can be a debuffer as a thaumaturge; I can decide to improve my character with conjurer, gladiator, lancer... but I’m not forced to do that. It’s my choice, because I wanna rasp a bit some imperfection.

DOMs are a little trickier to classify, but you can think of a conjurer as a direct-magic expert (with elemental themes) and thaumaturge as a damage-over-time-magic expert (with light/dark themes).

No another time. You continue to put everything into a box, but this is not how FF14 works.
A conjurer is a Damage dealer, an healer, a buffer, everything. A thaumaturge is a damage dealer, an healer, a debuffer.

The classes we have right now do not define roles, but instead comprise a collection of skills associated with a particular weapon. We tend to think of gladiators as “tanks” (because they have some defensive abilities such as “rampart”, “sentinel”, “cover”, etc.), but there is nothing inherent to them being “the” tank class...in fact, if marauder could wield 1-handed axes with shields you could argue that they would be equally effective tanks (if not better) with abilities like “defender”, “disorient”, “foresight”, etc. So as the system stands right now, classes do not define any particular roles, but are the building blocks for creating roles or “jobs”.
Armory System allows for a lot of Customization
Even though the armory system seems to create rather “grey”, “undefined” classes, it does have some benefits that are worth keeping or putting into consideration when thinking about a possible redesign. I'm sure everyone can appreciate the convenience of being able to change your current class simply by changing your weapon. The other advantage of the current system is all the options for customization available—being able to directly swap abilities between classes allows us to really support our own playstyle to maximum effect.

As I suggested earlier, they packed too much into weapon classes in FFXIV. By introducing titles, we have a place to unpack some of these “role” and “specific” skills into and let weapon classes focus more on the “action” and “general” skills.

As you can see, the spells that are used by a Dark Knight map really well from FFXIV, but the Abilities and Traits that define the flavor of the Dark Knight are laughably missing good substitutes. If you want to be a melee, then your best bet is probably to be a Marauder or Lancer since they are the only two-handed melee weapons atm, but this kinda gimps out all the DOM spells that are giving more flavor to your “class” than your marauder or lancer skills.
With the title system, you have all these spells that come from THM and CON the same way as before, but you gain abilities and traits like Last Resort, Soul Eater, and Attack Bonus that you didn't have before.

And if do they add a job/weapon/class called knight, who got the missing skill you are asking? SE can add a class with 2hweapon able to stun, absorb SP, with skill who deal damage using your HP. Does he need to change everything for that?
I continue to not understand why you (and other players of course) want weakness. If you don’t like cure2 with a marad or a pugilist, don’t use it.
A lot of videogames, mainly the so-called “sandboxes” don’t have classes, only skills. Players pick up the skills they prefer and mix. It’s SO DAMN fun!
When you, and other players, will start to think “this is FF14, not FF11” and will begin to think “how do I want my character?”, you’ll finally grab the core of the game.
If SE adds classes/job/weapons, it’s nice, if these classes got something interesting I’ll play with them. But the system you have posted is only a complicated wire.

[Cairdeas]

No another time. You continue to put everything into a box, but this is not how FF14 works.
A conjurer is a Damage dealer, an healer, a buffer, everything. A thaumaturge is a damage dealer, an healer, a debuffer.

They can be.
But Thaums specialization is cone aoe and damage over time/healing over time.
While Conj specialization is circle AOE and direct damage elemental spells and heals.

[Carpe]

There is a simple way to communicate with others. It’s called “chat”. If I want DPS I can say “I’m a DPS”; If they want an healer, they can ask “do you want heal?” In previous games what? In ff7 we use materia, everyone could heal or dps. In FF8 we use summons, and absorb magic. In final fantasy10 there are spheres, and everyone can do everything. In FF12 same with that chess-like board. Final Fantasy is a system where everyone can do everything, it's just a matter of time.

You're right I shouldn't be making broad generalization about what people want, but if you look at the player poll results the issue of class uniqueness was significant across all regions:

Yoshi-P, Letter from the Producer V: the lack of class uniqueness seems to be prevalent in all regions. As this relates closely to core elements such as battle strategy, party composition, and attributes, we will be giving it top priority

Also, you mentioned arguably the most customizable installments in the series (as far as a character being able to customize their own role), but what about FF1, FF2, FF4, FF5, FF9, FF11?

The Title/Job system gives you plenty of options, what it doesn't do is let everybody be able to do everything EQUALLY well. That I think was a problem, at least for me, with FFXII, once you filled up the license board there was nothing to differentiate your characters other than the armor/weapon you chose to equip, you could use all the abilities/spells with equal proficiency so imposing a role on a specific character was just a state of mind, not something that was implemented into the system.

Not really. Gladiator, Conjurer, Thaumaturge are classes. They can do a “role”. I can be a debuffer as a thaumaturge; I can decide to improve my character with conjurer, gladiator, lancer... but I’m not forced to do that. It’s my choice, because I wanna rasp a bit some imperfection.


No another time. You continue to put everything into a box, but this is not how FF14 works.
A conjurer is a Damage dealer, an healer, a buffer, everything. A thaumaturge is a damage dealer, an healer, a debuffer.

All you are doing by using a title/job is furthering your ability to perform a role, you're still able to draw on other weapon skills to customize your character, you just become more effective in a role by using a title. It helps others identify what you want to do for the party and it let's you be part of a class that is part of the FF mythos. If that's not something you want then well, I guess we have different tastes.

[Mr_Gyactus]

They can be.
But Thaums specialization is cone aoe and damage over time/healing over time.
While Conj specialization is circle AOE and direct damage elemental spells and heals.

I actually prefer choke + burn + other dot spells than fire II/blizzard II.
If we talk about elements vs holy+umbral we can agree easily, if we talk about how a player prefer to play his own char... hmmm.

@Carpe. Exactly, it's a state of mind. this is the good thing of the system.
I'm not forced to create another character, I'm not forced to level up in a specific role.

If I'm playing an healing class, for example, I'm forced to level with a group.
Better, I'm forced to level with a group where there are DPS.
More, I'm forced to level in a group, with a tank and with DPS.

Actually if I'm playing as... pugilist ok? I can accept a casual party from an unknown, without worring about his class.
Can he heal? Nice! I will have less trouble (I hope XD).
He cannot heal? Nevermind, I can heal myself in some way.
If I had a 50% reduced heal from cure, probably I was not able to heal myself, so I was forced to search a proper class and refuse the party.
I prefer this uniqueness comes from stats, equip, personal choices, experience, balancing with others.

However, we cannot do everything: we have 2 important things to consider.
1. skill you can equip
2. time of a rotation. We can equip ...5 different dps skills, but we have to consider TP, cast time, cooldown, in the end, I use only 2 or 3.

I don't like cages. I have played different games, but generally I play hybrids, so I can fill a different role whenever is necessary.

[Carpe]

I'm not forced to create another character, I'm not forced to level up in a specific role.

If I'm playing an healing class, for example, I'm forced to level with a group.
Better, I'm forced to level with a group where there are DPS.
More, I'm forced to level in a group, with a tank and with DPS.

Actually if I'm playing as... pugilist ok? I can accept a casual party from an unknown, without worring about his class.

No one is forcing you to do anything in this system. If you think you don't have to "create another character" in FFXIV with the armory system that's just an illusion, if you've been playing pugilist and want to learn how to heal you have to become a THM or CON and level them up anyway (second wind cooldown/stamina cost is too much to be worth at higher levels).

Can he heal? Nice! I will have less trouble (I hope XD).
He cannot heal? Nevermind, I can heal myself in some way.
If I had a 50% reduced heal from cure, probably I was not able to heal myself, so I was forced to search a proper class and refuse the party.

I don't think having everybody running around like an "army of one" is going to do good for this game. If there's anything that binds all the FF games together it's the idea of being in a party and relying on/working with other's to take down a greater evil. This system supports that theme by letting people further define themselves in terms of what they are going to bring to the party. That doesn't mean that it prevents you from doing some unique build/hybrid for solo, for fun, or for some unique strategy for some unique boss. That's the type of customization that was allowed for in the job/subjob system in FFXI. This system is a spin on that idea, it's like an evolution of that idea.

I prefer this uniqueness comes from stats, equip, personal choices, experience, balancing with others.

However, we cannot do everything: we have 2 important things to consider.
1. skill you can equip
2. time of a rotation. We can equip ...5 different dps skills, but we have to consider TP, cast time, cooldown, in the end, I use only 2 or 3.

I don't like cages. I have played different games, but generally I play hybrids, so I can fill a different role whenever is necessary.

You can play hybrids in this system. Some jobs are more hybrid than others (RDM, BLU, PLD, DRK, etc.) You can also create your own unique hybrid let's say you want to be a WHM/ARC like Rosa in FFIV, you can do that.

I think you are putting a negative spin on this idea by thinking that you are being forced to be a particular role, but that isn't true, if anything, adding another layer of customization leads to many more options/choices for how you want to build your own character.

The only reason people can run around as "army of one" "master of everything" right now is because the game/content is far too easy...once they make things much harder people will begin to specialize and "optimal" tank, healer, DD, builds are going to emerge anyway, and without the extra layer of customization that adding a title gives you, they are going to be much less variation on what people are going to bring to the table.

[OmegaNovaios]

You can play hybrids in this system. Some jobs are more hybrid than others (RDM, BLU, PLD, DRK, etc.) You can also create your own unique hybrid let's say you want to be a WHM/ARC like Rosa in FFIV, you can do that.

I think you are putting a negative spin on this idea by thinking that you are being forced to be a particular role, but that isn't true, if anything, adding another layer of customization leads to many more options/choices for how you want to build your own character.

The only reason people can run around as "army of one" "master of everything" right now is because the game/content is far too easy...once they make things much harder people will begin to specialize and "optimal" tank, healer, DD, builds are going to emerge anyway, and without the extra layer of customization that adding a title gives you, they are going to be much less variation on what people are going to bring to the table.

My biggest issue is that any class can do EVERYTHING.

Mr_Gyactus referred THM as being able to Heal, DPS, Debuff, however THM can do so much more than just this because there are not heavy penalty restrictions from cross classing abilities and giving titles, jobs would enhance this greatly and give more customization than we already have so arguing that they like having a sandbox isn't valid because it would still exist but WITH MORE OPTIONS ADDED TO IT.

For example I can do the exact same thing as CON magic wise if I equip the exact same actions. So what is the difference in me using THM or CON? The only difference is which AOE style I prefer and that's not a bid deal at all and the only reason I would even consider leveling both or 1 over the other is which actions I prefer which if I level both which I use comes down to which AOE I prefer (NOT MUCH CUSTOMIZATION NOW IS THERE?).

Now also I can equip melee DPS skills on THM as well such as Doomspike from LNC. Now my highest damage output with Doomspike as LNC while using 2 attack buffs and 2 accuracy buffs at 3000 TP is 600 damage solo. Now as THM with the exact same actions equipped, same gear, same attributes my highest damage using Doomspike is also 600 damage with 3000 TP. So the exact same damage and I can attack form range with Doomspike as THM (DOES THIS LOOK LIKE CUSTOMIZATION TO YOU BY ONLY DIFFERENTIATING WHICH WEAPON I PREFER?).

Now lastly we can move on to THM tank role. Let's compare to GLA since people see this as the tank role. Well both get a shield, can use the same actions shield or not. Have the exact same effectiveness on all actions including all enmity, damage mitigation, and self-curing effectiveness. The only differences between these two are which weapon do I prefer and do I prefer twice as much HP or being able to AOE spells. Now there is a much bigger difference here than my two previous examples ONLY because of the HP difference which makes tanking essentially twice as difficult however is just as effective because they take a very similar amount of damage with the same actions equipped and being able to cast cure just slightly faster makes up for taking just slightly more damage. The oonly thing that would prevent THM from tanking over a GLA is if the THM gets "1 shot" which is highly more likely because of the HP difference and that is it. Now let's compare being able to AOE spells which GLA can't do. As THM I can AOE Paralyze/Sleep/Absorb ATK/ Absord DEF in a behest and aggro every single mob and them spam cures on myself and tank every single mob. I can also use Wardrum as THM since I can equip a shield. Now if I have just as many people curing me as THM as people would be curing a GLA tanking this many mobs at once time then I will be fine especially after having ATK and DEF weakened on ALL mobs and mine increased as where as GLA could only do this on 1 mob (SO IS THERE STILL A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN CUSTOMIZATION BETWEEN WHICH WEAPON YOU USE AND THE OPTION OF HP OR AOEING SPELLS?).

This is my biggest issue with the game ATM because I can do everything as every class in the same way with the same effectiveness.

Edit: Another thought is that maybe the Title System can be worked to allow every class to perform every role just not the exact same way so there is a reason to use one class over the other based on player preference.

[Carpe]

Another thought is that maybe the Title System can be worked to allow every class to perform every role just not the exact same way so there is a reason to use one class over the other based on player preference.

Well, this kind of goes with my idea that they need to differentiate the weapon classes regardless of whether or not they add titles/jobs. Differentiating would give bigger differences between combinations like DRK/LNC, DRK/GLA, and DRK/MRD.

The idea is that they should extract themes around these weapons and have the spells/abilities you learn from them be built more around those themes. So arbitrarily, a MRD might give you more abilities for AOE type damage, would have more critical/burst damage, and give you abilities that improve your parry rate, where as, a GLA might give more steady single target damage, give you abilities that maybe buff you in some way (ex. Accuracy/Damage Mitigation). Reworking these classes in this way starts to further define your play style regardless of what role you are going to be performing for the party.

So someone doing PLD/GLA/SEN might use a 1H sword and shield and be more of a steady damage, accuracy, damage mitigation tank, while a PLD/MRD/SEN might use a 1H axe and shield and be more of a criticals, AOE, enmity, parry tank. A PLD/ARC can be like a kiting tank.

Or modifications like Cairdeas suggests:http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...3990#post43990

That way the Job/Title will basically be defining (to some extent) WHAT you will be doing, while your Weapon Class is determining HOW you will be doing it.

[OmegaNovaios]

Job/Title will basically be defining (to some extent) WHAT you will be doing, while your Weapon Class is determining HOW you will be doing it.

This is the best quote ever.