[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[Mr_Gyactus]

So there have been a lot of ideas floating around the forums about how to incorporate traditional FF jobs into FFXIV. One of the main reasons people want traditional jobs is that they feel right now there isn't a very strong sense of class uniqueness or role identification in the game. For example, a Conjurer is a hodgepodge of different skills that can be used for nuking, buffing, and and/or healing.

Yes and not.
The main reason people want traditional jobs is because people don’t like changes.
A conjurer is an healer, a buffer and a DPS, all depends how you play it. However, you are not the best healer if you don’t take sacrifice for example, and for dps purpose you need Bio/Dia/Poison and various buffes from different jobs.

We need more Class Uniqueness and Role Identification
As the game is right now there is no way for a player playing a Conjurer to let other people in their party know what type of role they want to play. Sure, you could create a specialist class (ex. healer/buffer) by mixing abilities from various classes, but it's hard to identify with vague class hybrids the way that we were able to identify with clear-cut classes (classes filled with a rich tradition of lore) like those in FFXI and previous FF games.

You need, Not “we”. There is a simple way to communicate with others. It’s called “chat”. If I want DPS I can say “I’m a DPS”; If they want an healer, they can ask “do you want heal?”
In previous games what? In ff7 we use materia, everyone could heal or dps. In FF8 we use summons, and absorb magic. In final fantasy10 there are spheres, and everyone can do everything. In FF12 same with that chess-like board. Final Fantasy is a system where everyone can do everything, it's just a matter of time.

This idea puts FFXIV classes on the same plane as FFXI jobs, which doesn't make sense with the current armory system because in FFXIV class=”weapon skills”, and in FFXI class=”job”.

Not really. Gladiator, Conjurer, Thaumaturge are classes. They can do a “role”. I can be a debuffer as a thaumaturge; I can decide to improve my character with conjurer, gladiator, lancer... but I’m not forced to do that. It’s my choice, because I wanna rasp a bit some imperfection.

DOMs are a little trickier to classify, but you can think of a conjurer as a direct-magic expert (with elemental themes) and thaumaturge as a damage-over-time-magic expert (with light/dark themes).

No another time. You continue to put everything into a box, but this is not how FF14 works.
A conjurer is a Damage dealer, an healer, a buffer, everything. A thaumaturge is a damage dealer, an healer, a debuffer.

The classes we have right now do not define roles, but instead comprise a collection of skills associated with a particular weapon. We tend to think of gladiators as “tanks” (because they have some defensive abilities such as “rampart”, “sentinel”, “cover”, etc.), but there is nothing inherent to them being “the” tank class...in fact, if marauder could wield 1-handed axes with shields you could argue that they would be equally effective tanks (if not better) with abilities like “defender”, “disorient”, “foresight”, etc. So as the system stands right now, classes do not define any particular roles, but are the building blocks for creating roles or “jobs”.
Armory System allows for a lot of Customization
Even though the armory system seems to create rather “grey”, “undefined” classes, it does have some benefits that are worth keeping or putting into consideration when thinking about a possible redesign. I'm sure everyone can appreciate the convenience of being able to change your current class simply by changing your weapon. The other advantage of the current system is all the options for customization available—being able to directly swap abilities between classes allows us to really support our own playstyle to maximum effect.

As I suggested earlier, they packed too much into weapon classes in FFXIV. By introducing titles, we have a place to unpack some of these “role” and “specific” skills into and let weapon classes focus more on the “action” and “general” skills.

As you can see, the spells that are used by a Dark Knight map really well from FFXIV, but the Abilities and Traits that define the flavor of the Dark Knight are laughably missing good substitutes. If you want to be a melee, then your best bet is probably to be a Marauder or Lancer since they are the only two-handed melee weapons atm, but this kinda gimps out all the DOM spells that are giving more flavor to your “class” than your marauder or lancer skills.
With the title system, you have all these spells that come from THM and CON the same way as before, but you gain abilities and traits like Last Resort, Soul Eater, and Attack Bonus that you didn't have before.

And if do they add a job/weapon/class called knight, who got the missing skill you are asking? SE can add a class with 2hweapon able to stun, absorb SP, with skill who deal damage using your HP. Does he need to change everything for that?
I continue to not understand why you (and other players of course) want weakness. If you don’t like cure2 with a marad or a pugilist, don’t use it.
A lot of videogames, mainly the so-called “sandboxes” don’t have classes, only skills. Players pick up the skills they prefer and mix. It’s SO DAMN fun!
When you, and other players, will start to think “this is FF14, not FF11” and will begin to think “how do I want my character?”, you’ll finally grab the core of the game.
If SE adds classes/job/weapons, it’s nice, if these classes got something interesting I’ll play with them. But the system you have posted is only a complicated wire.

[Cairdeas]

No another time. You continue to put everything into a box, but this is not how FF14 works.
A conjurer is a Damage dealer, an healer, a buffer, everything. A thaumaturge is a damage dealer, an healer, a debuffer.

They can be.
But Thaums specialization is cone aoe and damage over time/healing over time.
While Conj specialization is circle AOE and direct damage elemental spells and heals.

[Mr_Gyactus]

They can be.
But Thaums specialization is cone aoe and damage over time/healing over time.
While Conj specialization is circle AOE and direct damage elemental spells and heals.

I actually prefer choke + burn + other dot spells than fire II/blizzard II.
If we talk about elements vs holy+umbral we can agree easily, if we talk about how a player prefer to play his own char... hmmm.

@Carpe. Exactly, it's a state of mind. this is the good thing of the system.
I'm not forced to create another character, I'm not forced to level up in a specific role.

If I'm playing an healing class, for example, I'm forced to level with a group.
Better, I'm forced to level with a group where there are DPS.
More, I'm forced to level in a group, with a tank and with DPS.

Actually if I'm playing as... pugilist ok? I can accept a casual party from an unknown, without worring about his class.
Can he heal? Nice! I will have less trouble (I hope XD).
He cannot heal? Nevermind, I can heal myself in some way.
If I had a 50% reduced heal from cure, probably I was not able to heal myself, so I was forced to search a proper class and refuse the party.
I prefer this uniqueness comes from stats, equip, personal choices, experience, balancing with others.

However, we cannot do everything: we have 2 important things to consider.
1. skill you can equip
2. time of a rotation. We can equip ...5 different dps skills, but we have to consider TP, cast time, cooldown, in the end, I use only 2 or 3.

I don't like cages. I have played different games, but generally I play hybrids, so I can fill a different role whenever is necessary.

[Carpe]

I'm not forced to create another character, I'm not forced to level up in a specific role.

If I'm playing an healing class, for example, I'm forced to level with a group.
Better, I'm forced to level with a group where there are DPS.
More, I'm forced to level in a group, with a tank and with DPS.

Actually if I'm playing as... pugilist ok? I can accept a casual party from an unknown, without worring about his class.

No one is forcing you to do anything in this system. If you think you don't have to "create another character" in FFXIV with the armory system that's just an illusion, if you've been playing pugilist and want to learn how to heal you have to become a THM or CON and level them up anyway (second wind cooldown/stamina cost is too much to be worth at higher levels).

Can he heal? Nice! I will have less trouble (I hope XD).
He cannot heal? Nevermind, I can heal myself in some way.
If I had a 50% reduced heal from cure, probably I was not able to heal myself, so I was forced to search a proper class and refuse the party.

I don't think having everybody running around like an "army of one" is going to do good for this game. If there's anything that binds all the FF games together it's the idea of being in a party and relying on/working with other's to take down a greater evil. This system supports that theme by letting people further define themselves in terms of what they are going to bring to the party. That doesn't mean that it prevents you from doing some unique build/hybrid for solo, for fun, or for some unique strategy for some unique boss. That's the type of customization that was allowed for in the job/subjob system in FFXI. This system is a spin on that idea, it's like an evolution of that idea.

I prefer this uniqueness comes from stats, equip, personal choices, experience, balancing with others.

However, we cannot do everything: we have 2 important things to consider.
1. skill you can equip
2. time of a rotation. We can equip ...5 different dps skills, but we have to consider TP, cast time, cooldown, in the end, I use only 2 or 3.

I don't like cages. I have played different games, but generally I play hybrids, so I can fill a different role whenever is necessary.

You can play hybrids in this system. Some jobs are more hybrid than others (RDM, BLU, PLD, DRK, etc.) You can also create your own unique hybrid let's say you want to be a WHM/ARC like Rosa in FFIV, you can do that.

I think you are putting a negative spin on this idea by thinking that you are being forced to be a particular role, but that isn't true, if anything, adding another layer of customization leads to many more options/choices for how you want to build your own character.

The only reason people can run around as "army of one" "master of everything" right now is because the game/content is far too easy...once they make things much harder people will begin to specialize and "optimal" tank, healer, DD, builds are going to emerge anyway, and without the extra layer of customization that adding a title gives you, they are going to be much less variation on what people are going to bring to the table.

[OmegaNovaios]

You can play hybrids in this system. Some jobs are more hybrid than others (RDM, BLU, PLD, DRK, etc.) You can also create your own unique hybrid let's say you want to be a WHM/ARC like Rosa in FFIV, you can do that.

I think you are putting a negative spin on this idea by thinking that you are being forced to be a particular role, but that isn't true, if anything, adding another layer of customization leads to many more options/choices for how you want to build your own character.

The only reason people can run around as "army of one" "master of everything" right now is because the game/content is far too easy...once they make things much harder people will begin to specialize and "optimal" tank, healer, DD, builds are going to emerge anyway, and without the extra layer of customization that adding a title gives you, they are going to be much less variation on what people are going to bring to the table.

My biggest issue is that any class can do EVERYTHING.

Mr_Gyactus referred THM as being able to Heal, DPS, Debuff, however THM can do so much more than just this because there are not heavy penalty restrictions from cross classing abilities and giving titles, jobs would enhance this greatly and give more customization than we already have so arguing that they like having a sandbox isn't valid because it would still exist but WITH MORE OPTIONS ADDED TO IT.

For example I can do the exact same thing as CON magic wise if I equip the exact same actions. So what is the difference in me using THM or CON? The only difference is which AOE style I prefer and that's not a bid deal at all and the only reason I would even consider leveling both or 1 over the other is which actions I prefer which if I level both which I use comes down to which AOE I prefer (NOT MUCH CUSTOMIZATION NOW IS THERE?).

Now also I can equip melee DPS skills on THM as well such as Doomspike from LNC. Now my highest damage output with Doomspike as LNC while using 2 attack buffs and 2 accuracy buffs at 3000 TP is 600 damage solo. Now as THM with the exact same actions equipped, same gear, same attributes my highest damage using Doomspike is also 600 damage with 3000 TP. So the exact same damage and I can attack form range with Doomspike as THM (DOES THIS LOOK LIKE CUSTOMIZATION TO YOU BY ONLY DIFFERENTIATING WHICH WEAPON I PREFER?).

Now lastly we can move on to THM tank role. Let's compare to GLA since people see this as the tank role. Well both get a shield, can use the same actions shield or not. Have the exact same effectiveness on all actions including all enmity, damage mitigation, and self-curing effectiveness. The only differences between these two are which weapon do I prefer and do I prefer twice as much HP or being able to AOE spells. Now there is a much bigger difference here than my two previous examples ONLY because of the HP difference which makes tanking essentially twice as difficult however is just as effective because they take a very similar amount of damage with the same actions equipped and being able to cast cure just slightly faster makes up for taking just slightly more damage. The oonly thing that would prevent THM from tanking over a GLA is if the THM gets "1 shot" which is highly more likely because of the HP difference and that is it. Now let's compare being able to AOE spells which GLA can't do. As THM I can AOE Paralyze/Sleep/Absorb ATK/ Absord DEF in a behest and aggro every single mob and them spam cures on myself and tank every single mob. I can also use Wardrum as THM since I can equip a shield. Now if I have just as many people curing me as THM as people would be curing a GLA tanking this many mobs at once time then I will be fine especially after having ATK and DEF weakened on ALL mobs and mine increased as where as GLA could only do this on 1 mob (SO IS THERE STILL A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN CUSTOMIZATION BETWEEN WHICH WEAPON YOU USE AND THE OPTION OF HP OR AOEING SPELLS?).

This is my biggest issue with the game ATM because I can do everything as every class in the same way with the same effectiveness.

Edit: Another thought is that maybe the Title System can be worked to allow every class to perform every role just not the exact same way so there is a reason to use one class over the other based on player preference.

[Alyssasidhe]

My biggest issue is that any class can do EVERYTHING.

Mr_Gyactus referred THM as being able to Heal, DPS, Debuff, however THM can do so much more than just this because there are not heavy penalty restrictions from cross classing abilities and giving titles, jobs would enhance this greatly and give more customization than we already have so arguing that they like having a sandbox isn't valid because it would still exist but WITH MORE OPTIONS ADDED TO IT.

For example I can do the exact same thing as CON magic wise if I equip the exact same actions. So what is the difference in me using THM or CON? The only difference is which AOE style I prefer and that's not a bid deal at all and the only reason I would even consider leveling both or 1 over the other is which actions I prefer which if I level both which I use comes down to which AOE I prefer (NOT MUCH CUSTOMIZATION NOW IS THERE?).

Now also I can equip melee DPS skills on THM as well such as Doomspike from LNC. Now my highest damage output with Doomspike as LNC while using 2 attack buffs and 2 accuracy buffs at 3000 TP is 600 damage solo. Now as THM with the exact same actions equipped, same gear, same attributes my highest damage using Doomspike is also 600 damage with 3000 TP. So the exact same damage and I can attack form range with Doomspike as THM (DOES THIS LOOK LIKE CUSTOMIZATION TO YOU BY ONLY DIFFERENTIATING WHICH WEAPON I PREFER?).

Now lastly we can move on to THM tank role. Let's compare to GLA since people see this as the tank role. Well both get a shield, can use the same actions shield or not. Have the exact same effectiveness on all actions including all enmity, damage mitigation, and self-curing effectiveness. The only differences between these two are which weapon do I prefer and do I prefer twice as much HP or being able to AOE spells. Now there is a much bigger difference here than my two previous examples ONLY because of the HP difference which makes tanking essentially twice as difficult however is just as effective because they take a very similar amount of damage with the same actions equipped and being able to cast cure just slightly faster makes up for taking just slightly more damage. The oonly thing that would prevent THM from tanking over a GLA is if the THM gets "1 shot" which is highly more likely because of the HP difference and that is it. Now let's compare being able to AOE spells which GLA can't do. As THM I can AOE Paralyze/Sleep/Absorb ATK/ Absord DEF in a behest and aggro every single mob and them spam cures on myself and tank every single mob. I can also use Wardrum as THM since I can equip a shield. Now if I have just as many people curing me as THM as people would be curing a GLA tanking this many mobs at once time then I will be fine especially after having ATK and DEF weakened on ALL mobs and mine increased as where as GLA could only do this on 1 mob (SO IS THERE STILL A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN CUSTOMIZATION BETWEEN WHICH WEAPON YOU USE AND THE OPTION OF HP OR AOEING SPELLS?).

This is my biggest issue with the game ATM because I can do everything as every class in the same way with the same effectiveness.

Edit: Another thought is that maybe the Title System can be worked to allow every class to perform every role just not the exact same way so there is a reason to use one class over the other based on player preference.

So basically what you're saying is that the game is too much like real life? Because if I was equally proficient with firearms and bladed weapons in real life, and I could use both my hands equally well, there should be nothing keeping me from putting a gun in one hand and a long knife in the other, right?

What exactly is the problem with being able to use all of your abilities in any class? It's not like picking up a sword makes you dumb as a box of rocks and unable to cast magic. If you want to tank, choose a weapon and tank. Just tell your party members.

The MOST ANNOYING THING about ALMOST ALL popular games is the COMPLETE AND UTTER LACK of gaming ettiquette. A lot of people just walk up to you, invite you to party, and when you ask them why THEY WON'T TELL YOU. I literally have found that most people will not take the time to type something out even if they're asking you to trade. They just open a trade window without saying a word to you. It's so bad that it seems that most people don't even realize that you can talk to each other in these games.

If you want to tank, just say "I'm tanking." If the other player doesn't know what tanking is, then it really doesn't matter. Wearing a shield isn't going to make them any smarter. As a matter of fact, it would probably be better if you DIDN'T play with this person, since the fact that they don't know what a tank is probably means you're going to die a lot.

[Mr_Gyactus]

I don't think having everybody running around like an "army of one" is going to do good for this game. If there's anything that binds all the FF games together it's the idea of being in a party and relying on/working with other's to take down a greater evil. This system supports that theme by letting people further define themselves in terms of what they are going to bring to the party. That doesn't mean that it prevents you from doing some unique build/hybrid for solo, for fun, or for some unique strategy for some unique boss. That's the type of customization that was allowed for in the job/subjob system in FFXI. This system is a spin on that idea, it's like an evolution of that idea.

I don't see how a system with subclasses can enhance a party.
This is true only if we think the only possibile way to play this game is the common triad. It's not.
It’s used in FF11, it’s used in a lot of MMO games, but it's not the only possible choice.
Moreover, there are important MMO games in development, where they are removing the idea of triad (=tank/DPS/healer) and the most valuable aspect is “they are fun”.
We can develop challenges even if everyone is able to cover a role, in a different style.
Remember, if you use this type of gameplay, every encounter (=boss) will need a tank, a dps and an healer. I don’t find this gameplay intriguing, even if I have played this sort of game for years.

I think you are putting a negative spin on this idea by thinking that you are being forced to be a particular role, but that isn't true, if anything, adding another layer of customization leads to many more options/choices for how you want to build your own character.

Simply I see the system binding. I’m not saying I dislike new classes, I’m saying we must not give holds to discriminate players (if not our personal experience/knowledge).

The only reason people can run around as "army of one" "master of everything" right now is because the game/content is far too easy...once they make things much harder people will begin to specialize and "optimal" tank, healer, DD, builds are going to emerge anyway, and without the extra layer of customization that adding a title gives you, they are going to be much less variation on what people are going to bring to the table.

Yes, I agree with this, the problem is the content. SE can create content thinking about classic roles, or about what the game actually has. I wanna see a game where I can play with 3 random players and be able to complete an objective and kill a boss (if we are good enough, of course); the success depends from our ability, not from a class. choose the best player for that encounter, not the best job.
I don't think DD/TANK/healer will come out as you think. This is true only if SE decides to add content where we need a tank, a dps and an healer.

Mr_Gyactus referred THM as being able to Heal, DPS, Debuff, however THM can do so much more than just this because there are not heavy penalty restrictions from cross classing abilities and giving titles, jobs would enhance this greatly and give more customization than we already have so arguing that they like having a sandbox isn't valid because it would still exist but WITH MORE OPTIONS ADDED TO IT.

No, the problem seems be a lack of emphasis on stats, and SE has already stated they’ll improve this with equip and char base stats; so, before we talk about classes, it’s important to see how stats will change the gameplay.
I don’t see more options, more options in FF14 means more skills, usable in every character and in every combination. With the OP example, if SE adds a dark knight class and I can use DK skills with a pugilist or a gladiator, SE is adding options.
This does not mean the OP idea is bad, but before I can say “it’s good” I wanna understand how SE think to develop contents and gameplay.

[northernsky]

I don't see how a system with subclasses can enhance a party.
This is true only if we think the only possibile way to play this game is the common triad. It's not.
It’s used in FF11, it’s used in a lot of MMO games, but it's not the only possible choice.
Moreover, there are important MMO games in development, where they are removing the idea of triad (=tank/DPS/healer) and the most valuable aspect is “they are fun”.
We can develop challenges even if everyone is able to cover a role, in a different style.
Remember, if you use this type of gameplay, every encounter (=boss) will need a tank, a dps and an healer. I don’t find this gameplay intriguing, even if I have played this sort of game for years.

Very interesting. I have not played many other MMORPGs, can you give some examples?

edit: nevermind I was just confused by the english formulation

Actually the parties in which I had the most fun in XI and XIV were not triad parties. I think the game already provides that flexibility, i-e I change the abilities on my bar depending on if I pt or not, or depending on the people playing with me. There is a fair amount of heals and buffs that even melee can use efficiently.

What I fail to see is why you think a character progression system like the OP describes would favor the triad over a more flexible system. The way I see it, it is purely a bonus that you get, which you could decide to use to improve different facets of your playing style.

[Carpe]

Moreover, there are important MMO games in development, where they are removing the idea of triad (=tank/DPS/healer) and the most valuable aspect is “they are fun”. We can develop challenges even if everyone is able to cover a role, in a different style.

I don't think DD/TANK/healer will come out as you think. This is true only if SE decides to add content where we need a tank, a dps and an healer.

I'm also interested in learning more about these games that are getting rid of roles like "tank", "healer", "dps". I guess I don't see how these kind of roles like "tank", "healer", "dps" are avoidable. Just having an ability like "provoke" in the game suggests a tank role to some extent because why would you "provoke" if you weren't in some way capable of dealing with the attack better than those you are preventing the monster from hitting.

Only certain builds in this system would be like a very optimized "tank", "healer", "dps", you can have more hybrid builds that don't fall at the extremes of the tank/healer/dps spectrum.

If nobody had any definition whatsoever I think there would just be really confusing/inefficient combat. Everybody trying to heal someone that got damaged, so they get overhealed. Everybody pulling aggro off each other playing "pickle" with the mob. Maybe I'm not thinking about it in the right way, lol.

[Akumu]

I'm also interested in learning more about these games that are getting rid of roles like "tank", "healer", "dps". I guess I don't see how these kind of roles like "tank", "healer", "dps" are avoidable. Just having an ability like "provoke" in the game suggests a tank role to some extent because why would you "provoke" if you weren't in some way capable of dealing with the attack better than those you are preventing the monster from hitting.

Only certain builds in this system would be like a very optimized "tank", "healer", "dps", you can have more hybrid builds that don't fall at the extremes of the tank/healer/dps spectrum.

If nobody had any definition whatsoever I think there would just be really confusing/inefficient combat. Everybody trying to heal someone that got damaged, so they get overhealed. Everybody pulling aggro off each other playing "pickle" with the mob. Maybe I'm not thinking about it in the right way, lol.

This may help... http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-wars-2-Videos

scroll and you will see it later in the thread. About a bit after halfway down.

Another reason GW2 have my attention.