[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[Point_Zero]

Though I absolutely love the solution in this thread, does anyone else get the feeling they already know what and how they are going to implement this, and that it is too late for something this big?

[northernsky]

I think what most ppl complained about in regards to the current system was not the name of the classes but the fact they did not have Defining roles to differentiate each class in terms of gameplay. You can have the exact same skills equipped on MRD, LNC, PUG and not see much of a difference in role and i don't see this proposed system fixing that underline issue. If every class is allowed to equip every job title. My question to you is what differentiates a DRK/LNC, DRK/MRD and DRK/PUG other then the weapon they use in this new system.

You bring very good points. And I think there are two different things here.

1: lack of differentiation between the current classes. This needs to be addressed regardless of any type of advanced class implementation.

2: The implementation of advanced class/ job/title/whatever.
You ask "what's the difference between DRK/LNC vs DRK/MRD?". There would not be more difference as there is difference between LNC and MRD at the moment. But your DRK title is giving you this role you are referring at. Very simply, it adds to the current system the possibility of defining your role.

Right now both mages are proper healers. So if you want to play the healer role, you, become a white mage, and you can decide for which set of skills you want to have 100% potency, i-e from THM or CON

[OmegaNovaios]

Well another one is coming up, and almost every patch has to play with the problem of Blue and that's just one class.

Imagine 6 classes, and forget about it if they start adding classes.

And WoW rebalances but at least they have the manpower too. FF14 is so backlogged they can't even rebalance the existing broken skill sets. I don't think even WoW's manpower could do it if every skill can cross into every class. They at least have the luxury of only needing to work within the same tree.

Look at their 2010 patches. The best they could do was 4 skills, when about two dozen of them WS do nothing.

If you want 70% of your patches be rebalancing, the current system is fine, don't even have to touch it at all, the fact that they couldn't put the manpower in it is what makes this system broken.

They could have put every WS into "weapon only" and put every single good cross skills into double or triple SP requirement. Play with it long enough and the problem will go away at colossal effort.

But the moment you introduce a new skill, it's colossal effort +1.

Well there isn't a whole lot to compare too, but if you want MMO to be as balanced as you say then its going to either be exactly or extremely similar to FFXI or WOW, but IMO this Title System can be different and still balanced. It's a hell of a lot better than what it is now and I have seen no other better ideas.

[northernsky]

Though I absolutely love the solution in this thread, does anyone else get the feeling they already know what and how they are going to implement this, and that it is too late for something this big?

Well they hinted that they will add either sets of unlockable "advanced classes" or specialization, but they have not taken a decision in this regard. So I think they are working on it and considering the options, because once the decision is taken, there is no turning back.

Honestly, I really don't think that this system would be hard to implement. Add a quest to unlock the ability to "equip" a title + a quest for every title. Add a menu tab to select your title, available traits for that title are automatically equipped when the title is selected. In the window where you select your abilities from the different classes, there is an additional tab for the abilities granted by your current title.

We already rank up 2 levels of character growth independently : phys and class.
If they take away the phys, then it's not more complicated to implement a system to rank up class and titles independently as it is atm to rank up phys and class.

[OmegaNovaios]

I'm fairly certain Phys LV. WILL be removed. Here is a post I made previously concerning this issue.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...1399#post41399

[Carpe]

Honestly, I really don't think that this system would be hard to implement. Add a quest to unlock the ability to "equip" a title + a quest for every title. Add a menu tab to select your title, available traits for that title are automatically equipped when the title is selected. In the window where you select your abilities from the different classes, there is an additional tab for the abilities granted by your current title.

This is pretty much how I see it being done. And if people were really averse to being able to switch their job/title so quickly (because you lose "immersion" or something), then they could always integrate it as something that you do at an aetheryte crystal.

Quote from Letter from the Producer, V
"The bonus point allotment system was intended to be a means by which players could customize their character's individuality. The free distribution of attribute points has given rise to certain problems, however, such as compatibility issues with the Armoury system, and the lowered effectiveness of the attributes themselves. In particular, this lowered effectiveness of attributes also extends its influence to items, and is therefore something that we feel must be rectified. To do so, we are currently looking into the following two options:
1. Removal of the bonus point system, and the addition of automatic allotment of attribute points based on class.
2. Removal of physical levels, and the addition of class-specific allotment of attribute points for each class based on rank."

Now with option 1 the stat/gear system would be setup up exactly like FFXI. This means that the amount of points allowed to use is different for each class based based on the rank of the class and most likely equivalent to that if compared to physical levels. Now with this setup attribute stats will be allowed to increase to their highest potential since SE has direct control of class stats. With this setup you customize your character with gear rather than with allocated points. This will also add to class uniqueness since no class will have the exact same stats and thus will make actions more effective on certain classes.

Now option 2 increases the potential of attribute stats but not as high as option 1. This will put much more emphasis on customization through allocated stats while allowing maybe up to 10-20% of customization for gear (attributes only).

Personally this is a very hard decision for me to choose which is ultimately best because they are both very good solutions and I would be happy either way.

As from a min-maxer perspective you could spend just as long deciding on allocated stats as gear choices so I don't think that is a valid argument.

(Sorry I edited your quote to get rid of the "OP" reference since I pulled this from a different thread, didn't want to make it confusing)

Personally I could see them doing either as well. The first option, like you said, would give SE more control over stat progression for a given class. And the system basically forcing you to have a certain stat set-up (before gear bonuses are applied) would do a lot for class differentiation.

I think I lean more towards the second option though. Letting players customize their stats at a local level based on ranks for each class might be a better compromise.

Another idea to push class differentiation would be to have the stats cap differently for each class/rank. So to put this in the framework of this thread's system, a BLM might have a higher stat cap on INT, then say a PLD. This leaves customization open, but limits you from going too far in an unnatural extreme.

They should also just show us when our stats have been capped (maybe change the color of the font) rather than having people have to test out and find all the stat caps themselves.

[Carpe]

A simple way to implement this kind of system would be to simply change the physical level into a job level.

So if they get rid of the physical levels, is this essentially what happens?

First off, I was under the impression that SE was planning to do away with physical levels entirely anyway. But with this double class system that does raise the question of which would give you stat points. Perhaps it could be both, you get a few points when you rank up your discipline and then a few more points when you level up your job.

So that's a good question: should your stat points be based on your weapon class rank or on your job class rank?

If we want to differentiate the jobs, then they should be based on the job rank I think because stats help you to perform your role.

But, we want to have people unlocking jobs after a certain level, like ~20. Since in that case you wouldn't have a job at the beginning of the game to determine your stats.

Alternatively we could have a player start the game with a couple basic job options immediately available, but then you would have to rework so many more things in the game like the character selection, opening tutorials/quests, etc.

Another alternative is to have, like Cairdeas suggested earlier, all of these things (Job Title, Weapon Class, Rank, and Gear) contribute to your stats (although not all equally).

I could see this being similar to the Subjob system again where you started off as a single job (here it would be just a weapon class) which determined your stats, but when you learned to equip a subjob, applying that subjob boosted your stats. This gives players an incentive to unlock a title asap so they can essentially become more powerful.

Would you be able to customize/allocate some "bonus" stats in this kind of set up? Which of these sources should give you the option to play around with your stats, if any?

[Cairdeas]

I still think they should take away the physical level and manual stat allocation and replace it with the same stat system blue mage from XI has.

[Punxsutawney]

I love this write up, you have clearly spent alot of time thinking this through. But in all honesty, I don't want to play FF11-2. I think you did a great job in devising this, but I don't want to have Dark Knight, Ninja, Ranger, etc. And SE promised this game would be drastically different from FFXI, so while the basic premise of you system works, I don't think they'd use Soul Eater, Arcana killer, etc. But what they could do is use a FF: Tactics approach. I believe gladiator and archer were DD classes in the gameboy FF tactics. So it appears they have already taken a tactics approach to FF14. So instead of ranger, Dark Knight, etc. they could go fighter, assassin, sniper, sage, time mage, etc. (whice are tactics named classes).
This would work well with your design, if you wanted your "Gladiator to focus on brutal aoe and single target sword attacks, they would specialize in the "Fighter" title. If you wanted your conjurer to cast heavy DD spells with few support spells, they'd master in "Sage." If you wanted your Thaumaturge to be specialized in time based magic (Slows, gravities, Stop, paralyze, haste type spells) they'd take a Time Mage title. So on and so forth.
I really think you have an excellent idea, lets just implement different stuff than was in FF11, if they used your model, with a FF tactics theme, this game would rock so hard.

*Edited for spelling and grammar errors*

[OmegaNovaios]

I still think they should take away the physical level and manual stat allocation and replace it with the same stat system blue mage from XI has.

Having each individual action add different stat bonuses would be very interesting. I used /BLU a lot in FFXI and I changed my spells around all the time adjusting stats/changing job traits/trying out new spell tactics. I think this adds a very good layer to the FFXIV Armoury System by having a higher opportunity cost on actions and that can appeal to one class action wise and another class stat wise.