[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[kukurumei]

No matter the intentions it's just doesn't feel very practical. All it really does is push the problem for a few months before it becomes the exact same problems.

Once everyone figure out the "super class" combinations, it's back to the same old, crap.

All I see this current proposal is adding more things to the fire in hopes people won't notice the fire.

[Mishakai]

OK.. Hmm..

@OP.. That's alot of info to digest..

/reserved

And it's 7 pages down...

Initial Thoughts:

I think the current problem with the Armory system doesn't stem from the system itself, rather the perceived roles and abilities that certain classes/jobs/whatnot should have.

People define the Guardian as the "Tank" because they are the only melee class with the ability to equip a shield, not because of the abilities they get. Arguably, marauders make a better tank (at least earlier on) because of defender. Theoretically, I could make a Marauder Tank with the proper abilities and traits from other classes; quite easily actually. I know this is what you're changes are supposed to facilitate, but I believe that the current system facilitates it just fine.

The issue you speak of goes away if people ask for a role rather than a class when looking to fill a spot in a group. Technically, with the armory system, I could make a Guardian whose role is Healer and do just as good as a Conjurer if played properly (made easier now by auto MP Regen out of combat).

Honestly, the Armory system is the absolute LAST thing I want SE to touch. I'd rather them fix things that are obviously a decade behind the curve in MMO technology than change things that may very well be "next generation" and completely misunderstood.

From an equipment perspective:

Rather than defining binary boundaries between what gear each class can equip, they defined a set of rules that modifies the attribute bonuses granted based on how well mated a piece of gear is with the class that has it equipped. This follows along the lines of.. yeah, a mage can wear plate but his spells might not be as effective, or that a Tank could wear cloth, but not get quite the protection expected from a full suite of plate. That's not to say they don;t have other abilities to compensate.

XIV is not complete in this regard, however, there is a definite uniqueness offered by the Armory that is absent in just about every other MMO I have played. To bring in buzzwords.. The Armory system is a very sandboxy trait in an historically theme-park based IP.

I'd rather they expand around the possibilities of the Armory system before limiting it to humor more conventional approaches.

[kukurumei]

Honestly, the Armory system is the absolute LAST thing I want SE to touch. I'd rather them fix things that are obviously a decade behind the curve in MMO technology than change things that may very well be "next generation" and completely misunderstood.

That's arguably the first thing they need to touch. The armoury in essence is the weak link in any proposal to fix things. It's inherent idea of flexibly is flaws beyond a few patches.

This is how it currently works:
"OK who wants to tank?"
"I do" equips proper skill combination -tanks monster
everyone else /sit

Ok who wants to DD? 10 spots
-people equip skil combos BR spots
/sit

Whether you're a arc or a glad or anything doesn't matter, because it takes 3 seconds to leave the party and become that role. Everyone is the exact same you are sitting in the side lines or doing something anyone else can do.

Arguably the only real role that is unique at this point is the healer, since only DoM can AoE. and Arc only because of AoE range.

It's basically a clone wars. Just because you have roles doesn't make you any more special. /leave party /join party is all that seperate everyone.

The armory system breeds clones basically. You are role outsourced at the drop of a dime, because anyone can be anything simply leaving a party.

A system combination on top of another combinations only makes that 3 second /leave party into 10 seconds /leave party.

[Carpe]

That's arguably the first thing they need to touch. The armoury in essence is the weak link in any proposal to fix things. It's inherent idea of flexibly is flaws beyond a few patches.

This is how it currently works:
"OK who wants to tank?"
"I do" equips proper skill combination -tanks monster
everyone else /sit

Ok who wants to DD? 10 spots
-people equip skil combos BR spots
/sit

Whether you're a arc or a glad or anything doesn't matter, because it takes 3 seconds to leave the party and become that role. Everyone is the exact same you are sitting in the side lines or doing something anyone else can do.

Arguably the only real role that is unique at this point is the healer, since only DoM can AoE. and Arc only because of AoE range.

It's basically a clone wars. Just because you have roles doesn't make you any more special. /leave party /join party is all that seperate everyone.

The armory system breeds clones basically. You are role outsourced at the drop of a dime, because anyone can be anything simply leaving a party.

A system combination on top of another combinations only makes that 3 second /leave party into 10 seconds /leave party.

Let me try and clear this up by clarifying the idea of what I'm going to call Compounded Penalties.

Spells and Abilities will now favor a WEAPON CLASS (the weapon that taught you the spell/ability) and ONE or MORE TITLES in addition to being optimized for a given RANK.

To use CURE as an example again:

CURE
Conjury Optimal Rank: 4
Favors: WHM, PLD, etc.

This gives me three different variables/affinities that I have to meet for fully optimizing this ability: weapon class, title, and rank.

(Assuming All Optimal Rank)

WHM/CON
Weapon Class:Since you are using CON as your weapon class you meet this affinity.
Title: Since Cure favors WHM, you meet this affinity.
Rank: Since you are r4+, you meet this affinity.
3/3 = 100% effective

PLD/GLA
Weapon Class:Since you are using GLA you DO NOT meet this affinity
Title: Since Cure favors PLD, you do meet this affinity.
Rank: you meet this affinity.
2/3 let's say is 75% effective.

DRK/MRD
Weapon Class: Since you are using MRD, don't meet affinity
Title: Since Cure doesn't favor DRK, you don't meet this affinity
Rank: you are r4+ you meet this affinity
1/3 let's say is 50% effective.

Additionally,

WHM/THM
Weapon Class: do not meet this affinity, since it is base CON
Title: you do meet this affinity
Rank: you meet this affinity
2/3 = 75% effective

While your Cure is less effective with base THM than with base CON, you still have now a 100% effective sacrifice to make up for it. Also, your WHM title is going to give you healing bonus, so let's say arbitrarily you get +20% healing then your WHM/THM is cure=95%, and sacrifice=120%.

This doesn't have to cut off by 25% each time, these are just arbitrary numbers to illustrate an abstract concept. If your rank drops below the optimal rank your effectiveness for that spell is further affected by a greater compounded penalty.

Let's look at the effect of this when choosing to act out a role like "tank":

PLD/GLA
Rampart (+GLA, +PLD) = 100
Phalanx (+GLA, +PLD) = 100
Sentinel (+GLA, +PLD) = 100
Provoke (+GLA, +PLD) = 100
Defender (-GLA, +PLD) = 75
Foresight (-GLA, +PLD) = 75
Featherfoot (-GLA, -PLD) = 50
Defensive Bonus (PLD) = 100
Shield Mastery (PLD) = 100
Fealty (PLD) = 100

BLM/GLA
Rampart (+GLA, -BLM) = 75
Phalanx (+GLA, -BLM) = 75
Sentinel (+GLA, -BLM) = 75
Provoke (+GLA, -BLM) = 75
Defender (-GLA, -BLM) = 50
Foresight (-GLA, -BLM) = 50
Featherfoot (-GLA, -BLM) = 50
Elemental Seal (BLM) = 100
Magic Attack Bonus (BLM) = 100
Conserve MP (BLM) = 100

Do you think that the BLM/GLA will be able to tank nearly as effectively as the PLD/GLA? No. And it shouldn't because BLM shouldn't be able to steal the role of tank that is associated with a PLD. However that doesn't mean that sometimes, for a very particular situation, I might want to use a title with a weapon class that doesn't usually have that much synergy. Like I might decide to use BLM/MRD to level up solo because I decided that I wanted to balance out my use of TP and MP for a particular solo session.

This system leaves options open to you but encourages/discourages certain choices, especially those that are at extreme opposites of what you would expect.

[pilot]

My question to you is what differentiates a DRK/LNC, DRK/MRD and DRK/PUG other then the weapon they use in this new system.

I dont see much differentiation between these three beyond weapon based actions in relationship to affinity. i DO see this system supplying players with another layer of specific potential, pointing at how one might interpret such a title/job to be taken advantage of. Maybe it makes sense to use a DRK specific action similar to Souleater in conjuction with Bloodbath. If you want Bloodbath full potency then maybe DRK/MRD makes sense. DRK/THM might make sense for a different scenario.

Even another subtle layer of specificity might be attained through something like job specific armor. Maybe PGL and THM cant wear DRK specific armor. DRK specific armor would probably further highlight aspects the role a developer thinks DRK should fill.

I am strongly in favor of the player scuplting particular builds roles as the variables to be considered in many different tasks (eg. party size, specific monster, are we in this for SP or one boss kill) are "infinite". After a certain point you are asking the game designers to tell you how to play it seems in what youre implying. Of course lines must be drawn somewhere but again, id prefer to stave them off as long as possible.

[Shura]

Being able to sculpt classes is good and all but pointless combination's are in the end just that.. Pointless... Even in FFXI with its limited customization, you don't see people running around as DRK/BST for hnms, or WHM/DRG just because u get to call a pet. Everyone wants this freedom of customization but they don't realize that its the cause of the problem, This doesn't apply to everyone, the smart few will use that freedom of customization to create a effective combination, the other 70% will just abuse it for stupid reasons. Perfect example would be the freedom in gear that currently exists in ffxiv, the smart few understand the benefit of wearing gear the same lv as rank but the other 70% wear gear because it looks cool. Skills need to be limited and classes need to be limited imo;

even now in the game, some customization is just ridiculous... for example take Archer's skill Wide Volley - "Launch a wide-ranged assault, increasing attack power and dealing projectile damage to the target and nearby enemies." This skill can be used on any class, someone explain to me how a MRD,GLD,PUG can do a wide-ranged assault dealing projectile damage with an axe,sword,fist? Or how an Archer can do slashing dmg with skull sunder.

[OmegaNovaios]

Personally I'd rather have a few people running around on a pointless setup if most people can make a fun, unique, and useful setup that is a defined role at the same time and as you said you don't see people running around as DRK/BST then probably you won't see people running around as DRK/pet class in FFXIV. So would you have SE remove sub jobs from FFXI so people can't have choices like PLD/WAR to PLD/BLU or RDM/WHM to RDM/SCH just to eliminate the possibility that someone could go DRK/BST. If not then why deny adding practically the same thing to FFXIV. IMO more customization = more fun, however it is harder to balance, but if it can be balanced, roles can be defined, and uniqueness is present then in turn it WILL be more fun.

As for gear yes that needs rank/class requirements and as for using wide volley with an axe I don't know what to you other, but either way this thread's proposal doesn't make this worse.

[kukurumei]

Still sounds like a complicated mess that doesn't solve the underlying problems.

People will simple choose the best skills that doesn't involve percentages, or where percentages don't matter.

It's make a never ending struggle to balancing something that shouldn't need to be balanced every single patch.

The goal here has always been to stop fighting the multi-headed hydra. All you're proposing is to one head breath fire and one head breath ice.

As from another poster, if you're trying to tip-toe around the issues and try to satisfy everyone, then it's doomed before it began.

The only feasible way such a proposal will work is to axe the armoury system, and send it to the moogles. Static skills, static traits, ala FF11.

The tree system might be a somewhat better choice in the greater scheme of things. Make it so that a path can not be back tracked. If you have cure3 you must equip cure 1 and cure 2.

[Cairdeas]

Still sounds like a complicated mess that doesn't solve the underlying problems.

People will simple choose the best skills that doesn't involve percentages, or where percentages don't matter.

It's make a never ending struggle to balancing something that shouldn't need to be balanced every single patch.

The goal here has always been to stop fighting the multi-headed hydra. All you're proposing is to one head breath fire and one head breath ice.

As from another poster, if you're trying to tip-toe around the issues and try to satisfy everyone, then it's doomed before it began.

The only feasible way such a proposal will work is to axe the armoury system, and send it to the moogles. Static skills, static traits, ala FF11.

I'd just like to point out that this system basically mimics the Blue Mage system from XI and they never need to re-balance it every week like you are afraid of.

[kukurumei]

I'd just like to point out that this system basically mimics the Blue Mage system from XI and they never need to re-balance it every week like you are afraid of.

They did. The great rebalancing of skills. Where almost every skill was audited and changed. And a good bit of blue mage skills were changed as well in that.