[dev1033] Ideas for a Two-Tier Class System: Jobs on Top of Weapon Specializations

[Carpe]

I'm not forced to create another character, I'm not forced to level up in a specific role.

If I'm playing an healing class, for example, I'm forced to level with a group.
Better, I'm forced to level with a group where there are DPS.
More, I'm forced to level in a group, with a tank and with DPS.

Actually if I'm playing as... pugilist ok? I can accept a casual party from an unknown, without worring about his class.

No one is forcing you to do anything in this system. If you think you don't have to "create another character" in FFXIV with the armory system that's just an illusion, if you've been playing pugilist and want to learn how to heal you have to become a THM or CON and level them up anyway (second wind cooldown/stamina cost is too much to be worth at higher levels).

Can he heal? Nice! I will have less trouble (I hope XD).
He cannot heal? Nevermind, I can heal myself in some way.
If I had a 50% reduced heal from cure, probably I was not able to heal myself, so I was forced to search a proper class and refuse the party.

I don't think having everybody running around like an "army of one" is going to do good for this game. If there's anything that binds all the FF games together it's the idea of being in a party and relying on/working with other's to take down a greater evil. This system supports that theme by letting people further define themselves in terms of what they are going to bring to the party. That doesn't mean that it prevents you from doing some unique build/hybrid for solo, for fun, or for some unique strategy for some unique boss. That's the type of customization that was allowed for in the job/subjob system in FFXI. This system is a spin on that idea, it's like an evolution of that idea.

I prefer this uniqueness comes from stats, equip, personal choices, experience, balancing with others.

However, we cannot do everything: we have 2 important things to consider.
1. skill you can equip
2. time of a rotation. We can equip ...5 different dps skills, but we have to consider TP, cast time, cooldown, in the end, I use only 2 or 3.

I don't like cages. I have played different games, but generally I play hybrids, so I can fill a different role whenever is necessary.

You can play hybrids in this system. Some jobs are more hybrid than others (RDM, BLU, PLD, DRK, etc.) You can also create your own unique hybrid let's say you want to be a WHM/ARC like Rosa in FFIV, you can do that.

I think you are putting a negative spin on this idea by thinking that you are being forced to be a particular role, but that isn't true, if anything, adding another layer of customization leads to many more options/choices for how you want to build your own character.

The only reason people can run around as "army of one" "master of everything" right now is because the game/content is far too easy...once they make things much harder people will begin to specialize and "optimal" tank, healer, DD, builds are going to emerge anyway, and without the extra layer of customization that adding a title gives you, they are going to be much less variation on what people are going to bring to the table.

[OmegaNovaios]

You can play hybrids in this system. Some jobs are more hybrid than others (RDM, BLU, PLD, DRK, etc.) You can also create your own unique hybrid let's say you want to be a WHM/ARC like Rosa in FFIV, you can do that.

I think you are putting a negative spin on this idea by thinking that you are being forced to be a particular role, but that isn't true, if anything, adding another layer of customization leads to many more options/choices for how you want to build your own character.

The only reason people can run around as "army of one" "master of everything" right now is because the game/content is far too easy...once they make things much harder people will begin to specialize and "optimal" tank, healer, DD, builds are going to emerge anyway, and without the extra layer of customization that adding a title gives you, they are going to be much less variation on what people are going to bring to the table.

My biggest issue is that any class can do EVERYTHING.

Mr_Gyactus referred THM as being able to Heal, DPS, Debuff, however THM can do so much more than just this because there are not heavy penalty restrictions from cross classing abilities and giving titles, jobs would enhance this greatly and give more customization than we already have so arguing that they like having a sandbox isn't valid because it would still exist but WITH MORE OPTIONS ADDED TO IT.

For example I can do the exact same thing as CON magic wise if I equip the exact same actions. So what is the difference in me using THM or CON? The only difference is which AOE style I prefer and that's not a bid deal at all and the only reason I would even consider leveling both or 1 over the other is which actions I prefer which if I level both which I use comes down to which AOE I prefer (NOT MUCH CUSTOMIZATION NOW IS THERE?).

Now also I can equip melee DPS skills on THM as well such as Doomspike from LNC. Now my highest damage output with Doomspike as LNC while using 2 attack buffs and 2 accuracy buffs at 3000 TP is 600 damage solo. Now as THM with the exact same actions equipped, same gear, same attributes my highest damage using Doomspike is also 600 damage with 3000 TP. So the exact same damage and I can attack form range with Doomspike as THM (DOES THIS LOOK LIKE CUSTOMIZATION TO YOU BY ONLY DIFFERENTIATING WHICH WEAPON I PREFER?).

Now lastly we can move on to THM tank role. Let's compare to GLA since people see this as the tank role. Well both get a shield, can use the same actions shield or not. Have the exact same effectiveness on all actions including all enmity, damage mitigation, and self-curing effectiveness. The only differences between these two are which weapon do I prefer and do I prefer twice as much HP or being able to AOE spells. Now there is a much bigger difference here than my two previous examples ONLY because of the HP difference which makes tanking essentially twice as difficult however is just as effective because they take a very similar amount of damage with the same actions equipped and being able to cast cure just slightly faster makes up for taking just slightly more damage. The oonly thing that would prevent THM from tanking over a GLA is if the THM gets "1 shot" which is highly more likely because of the HP difference and that is it. Now let's compare being able to AOE spells which GLA can't do. As THM I can AOE Paralyze/Sleep/Absorb ATK/ Absord DEF in a behest and aggro every single mob and them spam cures on myself and tank every single mob. I can also use Wardrum as THM since I can equip a shield. Now if I have just as many people curing me as THM as people would be curing a GLA tanking this many mobs at once time then I will be fine especially after having ATK and DEF weakened on ALL mobs and mine increased as where as GLA could only do this on 1 mob (SO IS THERE STILL A HUGE DIFFERENCE IN CUSTOMIZATION BETWEEN WHICH WEAPON YOU USE AND THE OPTION OF HP OR AOEING SPELLS?).

This is my biggest issue with the game ATM because I can do everything as every class in the same way with the same effectiveness.

Edit: Another thought is that maybe the Title System can be worked to allow every class to perform every role just not the exact same way so there is a reason to use one class over the other based on player preference.

[Mr_Gyactus]

I don't think having everybody running around like an "army of one" is going to do good for this game. If there's anything that binds all the FF games together it's the idea of being in a party and relying on/working with other's to take down a greater evil. This system supports that theme by letting people further define themselves in terms of what they are going to bring to the party. That doesn't mean that it prevents you from doing some unique build/hybrid for solo, for fun, or for some unique strategy for some unique boss. That's the type of customization that was allowed for in the job/subjob system in FFXI. This system is a spin on that idea, it's like an evolution of that idea.

I don't see how a system with subclasses can enhance a party.
This is true only if we think the only possibile way to play this game is the common triad. It's not.
It’s used in FF11, it’s used in a lot of MMO games, but it's not the only possible choice.
Moreover, there are important MMO games in development, where they are removing the idea of triad (=tank/DPS/healer) and the most valuable aspect is “they are fun”.
We can develop challenges even if everyone is able to cover a role, in a different style.
Remember, if you use this type of gameplay, every encounter (=boss) will need a tank, a dps and an healer. I don’t find this gameplay intriguing, even if I have played this sort of game for years.

I think you are putting a negative spin on this idea by thinking that you are being forced to be a particular role, but that isn't true, if anything, adding another layer of customization leads to many more options/choices for how you want to build your own character.

Simply I see the system binding. I’m not saying I dislike new classes, I’m saying we must not give holds to discriminate players (if not our personal experience/knowledge).

The only reason people can run around as "army of one" "master of everything" right now is because the game/content is far too easy...once they make things much harder people will begin to specialize and "optimal" tank, healer, DD, builds are going to emerge anyway, and without the extra layer of customization that adding a title gives you, they are going to be much less variation on what people are going to bring to the table.

Yes, I agree with this, the problem is the content. SE can create content thinking about classic roles, or about what the game actually has. I wanna see a game where I can play with 3 random players and be able to complete an objective and kill a boss (if we are good enough, of course); the success depends from our ability, not from a class. choose the best player for that encounter, not the best job.
I don't think DD/TANK/healer will come out as you think. This is true only if SE decides to add content where we need a tank, a dps and an healer.

Mr_Gyactus referred THM as being able to Heal, DPS, Debuff, however THM can do so much more than just this because there are not heavy penalty restrictions from cross classing abilities and giving titles, jobs would enhance this greatly and give more customization than we already have so arguing that they like having a sandbox isn't valid because it would still exist but WITH MORE OPTIONS ADDED TO IT.

No, the problem seems be a lack of emphasis on stats, and SE has already stated they’ll improve this with equip and char base stats; so, before we talk about classes, it’s important to see how stats will change the gameplay.
I don’t see more options, more options in FF14 means more skills, usable in every character and in every combination. With the OP example, if SE adds a dark knight class and I can use DK skills with a pugilist or a gladiator, SE is adding options.
This does not mean the OP idea is bad, but before I can say “it’s good” I wanna understand how SE think to develop contents and gameplay.

[Carpe]

There is a simple way to communicate with others. It’s called “chat”. If I want DPS I can say “I’m a DPS”; If they want an healer, they can ask “do you want heal?” In previous games what? In ff7 we use materia, everyone could heal or dps. In FF8 we use summons, and absorb magic. In final fantasy10 there are spheres, and everyone can do everything. In FF12 same with that chess-like board. Final Fantasy is a system where everyone can do everything, it's just a matter of time.

You're right I shouldn't be making broad generalization about what people want, but if you look at the player poll results the issue of class uniqueness was significant across all regions:

Yoshi-P, Letter from the Producer V: the lack of class uniqueness seems to be prevalent in all regions. As this relates closely to core elements such as battle strategy, party composition, and attributes, we will be giving it top priority

Also, you mentioned arguably the most customizable installments in the series (as far as a character being able to customize their own role), but what about FF1, FF2, FF4, FF5, FF9, FF11?

The Title/Job system gives you plenty of options, what it doesn't do is let everybody be able to do everything EQUALLY well. That I think was a problem, at least for me, with FFXII, once you filled up the license board there was nothing to differentiate your characters other than the armor/weapon you chose to equip, you could use all the abilities/spells with equal proficiency so imposing a role on a specific character was just a state of mind, not something that was implemented into the system.

Not really. Gladiator, Conjurer, Thaumaturge are classes. They can do a “role”. I can be a debuffer as a thaumaturge; I can decide to improve my character with conjurer, gladiator, lancer... but I’m not forced to do that. It’s my choice, because I wanna rasp a bit some imperfection.


No another time. You continue to put everything into a box, but this is not how FF14 works.
A conjurer is a Damage dealer, an healer, a buffer, everything. A thaumaturge is a damage dealer, an healer, a debuffer.

All you are doing by using a title/job is furthering your ability to perform a role, you're still able to draw on other weapon skills to customize your character, you just become more effective in a role by using a title. It helps others identify what you want to do for the party and it let's you be part of a class that is part of the FF mythos. If that's not something you want then well, I guess we have different tastes.

[Alyssasidhe]

Yes and not.
The main reason people want traditional jobs is because people don’t like changes.
A conjurer is an healer, a buffer and a DPS, all depends how you play it. However, you are not the best healer if you don’t take sacrifice for example, and for dps purpose you need Bio/Dia/Poison and various buffes from different jobs.



You need, Not “we”. There is a simple way to communicate with others. It’s called “chat”. If I want DPS I can say “I’m a DPS”; If they want an healer, they can ask “do you want heal?”
In previous games what? In ff7 we use materia, everyone could heal or dps. In FF8 we use summons, and absorb magic. In final fantasy10 there are spheres, and everyone can do everything. In FF12 same with that chess-like board. Final Fantasy is a system where everyone can do everything, it's just a matter of time.


Not really. Gladiator, Conjurer, Thaumaturge are classes. They can do a “role”. I can be a debuffer as a thaumaturge; I can decide to improve my character with conjurer, gladiator, lancer... but I’m not forced to do that. It’s my choice, because I wanna rasp a bit some imperfection.


No another time. You continue to put everything into a box, but this is not how FF14 works.
A conjurer is a Damage dealer, an healer, a buffer, everything. A thaumaturge is a damage dealer, an healer, a debuffer.



And if do they add a job/weapon/class called knight, who got the missing skill you are asking? SE can add a class with 2hweapon able to stun, absorb SP, with skill who deal damage using your HP. Does he need to change everything for that?
I continue to not understand why you (and other players of course) want weakness. If you don’t like cure2 with a marad or a pugilist, don’t use it.
A lot of videogames, mainly the so-called “sandboxes” don’t have classes, only skills. Players pick up the skills they prefer and mix. It’s SO DAMN fun!
When you, and other players, will start to think “this is FF14, not FF11” and will begin to think “how do I want my character?”, you’ll finally grab the core of the game.
If SE adds classes/job/weapons, it’s nice, if these classes got something interesting I’ll play with them. But the system you have posted is only a complicated wire.

I like the current system also, but if they add more customization to it I don't mind. I'm only concerned that they will take the current system, which I like, and make it more rigid and less fluid. If they take my ability to customize my character away from me I might as well go play WoW with all the rest of the players who want the gaming company to do all their thinking for them. If they make the system have another layer or additional options (an easy button) then I'm all for it, as long as I am not REQUIRED to use the easy button.

[Carpe]

Another thought is that maybe the Title System can be worked to allow every class to perform every role just not the exact same way so there is a reason to use one class over the other based on player preference.

Well, this kind of goes with my idea that they need to differentiate the weapon classes regardless of whether or not they add titles/jobs. Differentiating would give bigger differences between combinations like DRK/LNC, DRK/GLA, and DRK/MRD.

The idea is that they should extract themes around these weapons and have the spells/abilities you learn from them be built more around those themes. So arbitrarily, a MRD might give you more abilities for AOE type damage, would have more critical/burst damage, and give you abilities that improve your parry rate, where as, a GLA might give more steady single target damage, give you abilities that maybe buff you in some way (ex. Accuracy/Damage Mitigation). Reworking these classes in this way starts to further define your play style regardless of what role you are going to be performing for the party.

So someone doing PLD/GLA/SEN might use a 1H sword and shield and be more of a steady damage, accuracy, damage mitigation tank, while a PLD/MRD/SEN might use a 1H axe and shield and be more of a criticals, AOE, enmity, parry tank. A PLD/ARC can be like a kiting tank.

Or modifications like Cairdeas suggests:http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...3990#post43990

That way the Job/Title will basically be defining (to some extent) WHAT you will be doing, while your Weapon Class is determining HOW you will be doing it.

[OmegaNovaios]

Job/Title will basically be defining (to some extent) WHAT you will be doing, while your Weapon Class is determining HOW you will be doing it.

This is the best quote ever.

[Cairdeas]

My Single Hit/AOE thread isn't very popular even though it would fix a lot of the differences between weapons people complain about. I'm sure SE would implement them differently but again mine were just ideas.

[OmegaNovaios]

My Single Hit/AOE thread isn't very popular even though it would fix a lot of the differences between weapons people complain about. I'm sure SE would implement them differently but again mine were just ideas.

Try posting it in English Forums > DISCUSSION > Battle Content as well.