Black Mage

[Remedi]

While I do agree SMN get punished really hard by death, if we're speaking about playing perfectly we can pretty much assume death is not a big factor. Whatever the class is, 1min+ of weakness is enough to ruin your performance.


BLM tends to get punished a lot more for small mistakes. Forgot about the precise timing on a mechanic preventing you from casting (which could be hard to track due to a flexible rotation) and you may end up either losing a few DPS by being forced to fire I instead of 4, or if this happens during the Fire 1 cast (about 1 chance over 4) you may end up having to transpose and lose a lot more.

I would argue that BLM is one of the hardest class in the game to play perfectly as you have to not only have the whole fight planned in advance but also to adapt on the flight to a flexible rotation, 6min into a fight you can't even plan ahead if you'll be in ice or fire even if you're a very consistent player.

Also data seems to agree on this, the lower the percentile is, the more lacking BLM dps tends to be compared to every other classes in the game. Sure at the top level if you're looking at 99+ percentile (or even MAX damage which is meaningless but a lot of people seems to focus on it) BLM may seems in a good spot, but at this point you're comparing classes played perfectly with luck on the side of the players and maybe some catering.
When looking below at still good parses like 90 percentile (reminder that this is the top 10% of raiders, further skewed by having usually more good players parsing than casuals), and BLM start to stop being competitive even on personal damage. at below 70 percentile it falls behind monk, and at very low percentile like 20 which still represent 1/5 of the player base have BLM as the third WORSE PERSONNAL damage.

As a PF group leader, why would I try to take a BLM which even if slightly above average like 60percentile is either doing 5% less damage than a SAM with the same utility, or doing slightly lower damage than a SMN or a MNK both of which have some offensive and defensive utilities ?
lets face it for a purely selfish dps class to even deserve a spot it needs to do more damage than all other classes with utility, a bit like SAM is doing (and arguably this isn't even enough)

If we are talking about playing perfectly yes death is not a big factor but balance is not done on perfect play as such I think that argument is valid.
I do agree with the rest, however I dunno if what really needed is either a dmg buff or a cast speed buff atm, or a nerf to SMN utility or personal ds. I have some ideas on that matter but since I don't play the class often I dunno the full extent of what it would lead to. I mean we need also to a have a slight modicum of foresight to see if the cure is better than the illness or we'll back to square one eventually.

[Llugen]

Ha, get it? SQUARE one? /rimshot

Earlier in this thread I threw out some suggestions for innovative fixes that could help both movement and damage simultaneously without a bandaid potency increase to skills like Fire IV. Most notably, allowing for thundercloud procs to not only last longer (30 second duration of the proc to match Further Ruin and Verstone/Verfire Ready) but possibly add to the thunder timer rather than refresh the thunder timer up to 60 seconds, and for a "combo" out of Firestarter into an instant cast Fire IV that also costs no MP.

Oh, and convert needs love. 180s recast is silly at this point. Aetherial Manipulation would also appreciate a recast reduction.


....Umbral Hearts also kinda really need love, too. And honestly, I wouldn't be opposed to thundercloud refreshing astral/umbral timer. That could make for another Fire IV if used in astral, and less Fire if you get one and have to move.

[Remedi]

Ha, get it? SQUARE one? /rimshot

Earlier in this thread I threw out some suggestions for innovative fixes that could help both movement and damage simultaneously without a bandaid potency increase to skills like Fire IV. Most notably, allowing for thundercloud procs to not only last longer (30 second duration of the proc to match Further Ruin and Verstone/Verfire Ready) but possibly add to the thunder timer rather than refresh the thunder timer up to 60 seconds, and for a "combo" out of Firestarter into an instant cast Fire IV that also costs no MP.

Oh, and convert needs love. 180s recast is silly at this point. Aetherial Manipulation would also appreciate a recast reduction.


....Umbral Hearts also kinda really need love, too.

would add a 30 secs duration to firestarter too tbh, but I agree

[TsuKoj]

Because my static doesn't release parses. Not an argument.

Why? You may be surprised to hear this, but. Not everyone uses parsers. Shocking, I know. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure there's something in the ToS about using parses to attack people?

Also, numbers can be fudged.



"NQ" Crafted Gear.



Clearly Normal Quality and mostly Verity.



Totally normal quality! I'm such a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad DPS! It's not like the accuser is dishonest at all, guys!

And yes, I do have verity gear. The gloves, because I am saving for the Genji Gloves for cast speed. The bracelet, however has no real excuse beyond laziness and slight boredom regarding FFXIV. Hell, I even overmelded my weapon to make up the difference for now.

As for "cherry picking", certainly you can make the argument that's the case, if the information didn't stay consistent in the regard of BLM generally being in the top 4 in terms of damage.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=99

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=95

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#dataset=80

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/17#

How low do you want to go? I mean, seriously, how low do you want to go? The information remains pretty consistent even into the 75%, where BLM is shown to be in the top 4. Beating it are Monks (who have always had high damage), Summoner (which has a pretty damn high skill ceiling to compliment its high skill floor) and Samurai.

But again, the numbers also don't lie. The argument that "personal" DPS doesn't matter as much as "contribution" is worthless, considering all those comps still rely on somewhat hard hitting DPSes being given higher damage through support.

That said, BLM could use a boost in its damage, to bring it closer to the contributions that Samurai brings and to make up for the clunkiness that Black Mage has always been used to.

You say your static doesn't release parses and link your screenshot of your gear as if though wearing 330 creation gear(expert roulette) is some sort of achievement? The only 340 piece you have is the genji belt. Your waiting on your genji gloves so assuming that's true, you've beaten o2s? Your not even using a 340 weapon, so looking at those facts you've beaten o1s? Congrats I guess... maybe o2s? We are talking about being competitive on an optimized level, about securing a spot in raids that isn't the easiest(only creator might've been easier) raid that we are likely to get.

[TsuKoj]

If we are talking about playing perfectly yes death is not a big factor but balance is not done on perfect play as such I think that argument is valid.
I do agree with the rest, however I dunno if what really needed is either a dmg buff or a cast speed buff atm, or a nerf to SMN utility or personal ds. I have some ideas on that matter but since I don't play the class often I dunno the full extent of what it would lead to. I mean we need also to a have a slight modicum of foresight to see if the cure is better than the illness or we'll back to square one eventually.

Actually balance should only ever be done at perfect play, since that is the maximum capability of the class.* I also don't think smn should be nerfed, I think casters in general need to be buffed. Rdm should be as good as brd/mch, smn should be as good as nin/drg/mnk, blm should be as good as sam(although sam isn't in a great spot either). There should be parity between the physical and magic classes. The whole ranged is an utility thing se is clinging onto is just false in most relevant content. It was true when leveling and it was true in arr. But now when every boss has room wide aoes, stack markers, a scripted dance, dps targeted aoes, and dynamo style aoes; range is no longer a benefit, and since ranged gets punished with cast timers already, being melee might actually be the utility.

*Utility/ability based around having messed up badly never ends up well. In competitive games they are not even considered a benefit at all. In shooters/mobas you wouldn't ever take an ability that says you only give up half a kill/half the gold to the enemy if you die over something like just a +10% more damage. Ones hedging on you being bad, the other is betting on you being good.

[Remedi]

Actually balance should only ever be done at perfect play, since that is the maximum capability of the class. I also don't think smn should be nerfed, I think casters in general need to be buffed. Rdm should be as good as brd/mch, smn should be as good as nin/drg/mnk, blm should be as good as sam(although sam isn't in a great spot either). There should be parity between the physical and magic classes. The whole ranged is an utility thing se is clinging onto is just false in most relevant content. It was true when leveling and it was true in arr. But now when every boss has room wide aoes, stack markers, a scripted dance, dps targeted aoes, and dynamo style aoes; range is no longer a benefit, and since ranged gets punished with cast timers already, being melee might actually be the utility.

Balance beign done at perfect play and perfect gear is the reason why on some games classes are broken.
It's not the perfect players that are heard the most by devs, but the other ones, why you think BRD and MCH got buffed so much in HW? because on some feelings those jobs felt weak, not realizing that changes to them can create butterfly unpredicted butterfly effects, that is the reason I don't talk about what they should do to SMN imho because I don't know exactly how it'll change the situation, selfish dps is a bit easier to predict because of that.
Also pls if you think that other guy is not right, I don't get what you'll achieve by antagonizing him further it'll just derail the discussion imho

[Kabooa]

If we are talking about playing perfectly yes death is not a big factor but balance is not done on perfect play as such I think that argument is valid.
I do agree with the rest, however I dunno if what really needed is either a dmg buff or a cast speed buff atm.

Jobs aren't balanced around the assumption that they die. That's honestly kind of ridiculous to say.

However, Black Mages in general seem to be divided on the best way to solve this. Some want more damage. I'm in the camp where I'd like a unique utility tool or targeted buff that the other casters don't bring.

Damage fixes are bandage fixes, while tools unique to a job / role generally allow you to build more interesting compositions than "It's like PDPS, but with a black mage"

[Remedi]

Normally they aren't but since Ress in combat are a thing in this game, it's something that I would consider as a dev, I dunno if they do, surely is a topic some use.

If you ask me I still believe they can sort out the pure dmg thing with support dmg thing, however it depends on them beign true to the stance which so far was not so much upheld (although I was able to predict some changes here and there to try and rectify their mistakes)
Honestly though the ship is sailed so I don't expect anything more than bandain from now

[Llugen]

Only if the damage is substantially higher does the logic "damage equals utility" work, otherwise damage that is "lower" with utility (see also, THE UTILITY CREATES DAMAGE, just not from the player using the utility) is stronger. Which says nothing of the fact that Summoner can largely be higher damage already before the utility is even calculated in.

Couple that with BLM's inability to meaningfully deal with progression/mechanics due to its turret style nature and stacks management, and you have a recipe for really bad class design. And if you don't want to call it "bad", then at the very least, unfavorable design by most groups.

[Lelila38]

Pls don't go into the give Blm raise debate. It's not good for us doesn't fit our playstyle or our lore.
If you want utility, I'd like to see some magic dmg buff, or a magic resistance debuff.