Black Mage

[Remedi]

I was not saying that they should play the wait game, I was annoyed that they topic has nearly nothing on the analyzation of blm problems but mostly butting head against each other and complaining about what other have

[BlackcatChen]

I was not saying that they should play the wait game, I was annoyed that they topic has nearly nothing on the analyzation of blm problems but mostly butting head against each other and complaining about what other have

It's because BLM's problems are directly related to the way the game is balanced currently. Ranged provide more raid DPS by a fairly significant margin (only slightly less personal dps, but with some of the best raid damage buffs in the game), get affected by mechanics less (no cast times), have better defensive utility (troub, minne, dismantle, pali vs addle and apoc), and better resource utility (refresh vs mana shift). BLM doesn't have a single advantage over them for that slot.

By SE's own words on how they balance jobs, this is just wrong on every level. People are complaining because it's unfair.

You want a real solution? Get rid of disembowel, make trick 5%, and make shadewalker a role action for melee. But since that will probably never happen - buff BLM's personal damage so they would at least be worth it for that.

[Remedi]

It's because BLM's problems are directly related to the way the game is balanced currently. Ranged provide more raid DPS by a fairly significant margin (only slightly less personal dps, but with some of the best raid damage buffs in the game), get affected by mechanics less (no cast times), have better defensive utility (troub, minne, dismantle, pali vs addle and apoc), and better resource utility (refresh vs mana shift). BLM doesn't have a single advantage over them for that slot.

By SE's own words on how they balance jobs, this is just wrong on every level. People are complaining because it's unfair.

You want a real solution? Get rid of disembowel, make trick 5%, and make shadewalker a role action for melee. But since that will probably never happen - buff BLM's personal damage so they would at least be worth it for that.

That's also an effct of ppl not beign good at analyzing what a job should do and mostly asking for dmg buff for their selfish reason, WAR got an unnecessary newe CD that just upset tank balance because they brought nothing to the party.
Guess what they were meant to bring nothing but their dps and defense.
Saying that it's unfair that Ranged dps bring many buff or that BLM doesn't bring a raise to the table won't really solve anything, if dmg is the problem then maybe yes a dmg buff needs to be done, however do take notice that you can't balance the game based on the speedkill meta you can work around that yes but there's always something that will come up on top no matter what.
Also you need to consider how badly jobs are compared to each other really, what is really broken is when a job is so bad that you cannot complete the figth with not when you cannot complete the fight asap, that just invokes unnecessary power creeps

Also tbh I don't consider shadewalker as needed as before now that shirk is a thing tbh

edit: BTW when actually the SMN getting so high on the logs happened? before of after radiant shield dmg was beign accredited to them? last time I checked it was 3-4 weeks after savage release and it wasn't like that, maybe just maybe that is something to look at

[BlackcatChen]

So then... what are the criteria for judging balance between DPS jobs?

How is it not affected by these factors?
- how fast the job helps you kill a fight
- how a job is affected by fight mechanics
- the resources a job helps replenish so that a run can keep going smoothly
- mitigation and defensive utility to help you clear or help with healer damage
- external utility hate or battle res

It doesn't take a genius to note that black mage is worse in every single one of these categories.

If you are worried about job identity isn't the fix obvious? Give BLM more damage.

[GospelVhae]

however do take notice that you can't balance the game based on the speedkill meta you can work around that yes but there's always something that will come up on top no matter what.

This isn't even about BLM should be on top of the speedkill meta. This is about BLMs not being brought to speedkills at all. Hell, there are even top 10 speedkills for o3s that has RDMon it, a job that is a borderline burden past progression which is only saved by Embolden, a utility/rdps skill, and have skills that benefit from Disembowel.

To make matters worse, they gave SMN, another "utility" job that somehow gets ahead of the selfish BLM, a raid buff of all things! This violates SE's whole "utilitiy dps have less personal dps than selfish ones" monologue.

While I agree that balancing around speedkills is not something everyone agrees on, but SE should take notice why nobody takes this one job for competitive PVE and act on it.

[NoctusT]

you can't balance the game based on the speedkill meta you can work around that yes but there's always something that will come up on top no matter what.

The problem still persists, even if you remove speedkills from consideration. The OP talked about the homogenization of the caster role as well. In Creator for ex, you could still take a BLM into prog because apoc still had some good use in fights like A12S. Right now, with apoc being available to every caster, and with the addition of RDM, there's just no reason you would ever take BLM into prog for a fight. Since, as mentioned multiple times by everyone here, we don't do enough damage to justify taking us into progression NOR for farming the fights afterwards.

The speedkill meta is only one facet of the problem. Since SE is so hellbent on buffing damage for other jobs, why not help BLM too?

[Remedi]

The problem still persists, even if you remove speedkills from consideration. The OP talked about the homogenization of the caster role as well. In Creator for ex, you could still take a BLM into prog because apoc still had some good use in fights like A12S. Right now, with apoc being available to every caster, and with the addition of RDM, there's just no reason you would ever take BLM into prog for a fight. Since, as mentioned multiple times by everyone here, we don't do enough damage to justify taking us into progression NOR for farming the fights afterwards.

The speedkill meta is only one facet of the problem. Since SE is so hellbent on buffing damage for other jobs, why not help BLM too?

I also said that there are many facets to this like overall difficulty of the job and let's be reasonable SMN is harder to play perfectly and get shafted harder by death.
I do agree that a dmg buff could solve some problems, but as other have pointed there's also the fact that melee synergy or ranged synergy are simply better.
In theory SMN having high dmg would help BLM+SMN comp, however that is not the case as we know or maybe it hasn't been tested enough.
Anyway seems to me that now the discussion is going somewhere at least, which was my intention

[BlackcatChen]

I also said that there are many facets to this like overall difficulty of the job and let's be reasonable SMN is harder to play perfectly and get shafted harder by death.
I do agree that a dmg buff could solve some problems, but as other have pointed there's also the fact that melee synergy or ranged synergy are simply better.
In theory SMN having high dmg would help BLM+SMN comp, however that is not the case as we know or maybe it hasn't been tested enough.
Anyway seems to me that now the discussion is going somewhere at least, which was my intention

Recovery from death becomes proper utility when a sac is used as a strategy (A4S, A8S), and early prog (an environment where RDM would be better, by far). The other reason why a BLM/SMN comp is not too valuable is because Ifrit is simply better than Garuda right now, and Ifrit also helps the naturally better physical comps as a plus. You also lose out on Ranged defensive and resource utility, which is strictly better.

As for ranged, most problems seem to stem from balancing around not having Disembowel. But because of how this game is right now... you're going to have it in an 8 man party. When they have Disembowel, their damage becomes dangerously close to casters despite being kings of utility. And because we don't have any proper distinction between a Caster and Ranged other than "one has cast times", there's no real reason not to use double ranged. Because it simply does more damage, more utility, and resource management. And since double ranged is this good and works proper because of DRG, now DRG is a staple. Especially since Litany synergizes with BRD. Simply getting rid of Disembowel would make both DRG and ranged provide less damage, and help steer the game off the double ranged boat it has been in since 3.3.

As for the NIN change I suggested, the reasoning is very simple. Trick Attack being 10% has always been ridiculous. They have been dominating their slot forever. They've contributed more damage than any other job since they were released. And they don't just help a single role, that 10% for 17%+ of the fight goes for everyone. Most larger buffs got nerfed, but Trick stayed 10%. I noted Shadewalker because it definitely allows a tank to use less/no hate combo and tank stance, improving the DPS of the raid further. It still has a big effect, even now that Shirk exists. I've seen several tanks try to play like they have Shadewalker, in a PF with no NIN. Some unsuspecting SAM ends up getting hit in the face, even using Diversion on cooldown. It would also even force BLM to take diversion over apocatastasis or mana shift (you ain't getting rid of addle or swiftcast) for the same reasons, even though you're already saving lucid dreaming for hate.

Bringing DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH balance in line helps several classes. It helps MNK and SAM over DRG and NIN. It helps BLM/SMN/RDM over BRD and MCH. Right now replacing any one of those classes is a clear loss, and something should definitely happen to make party choice a bit more variable. We've had the same god comp since 3.3, something has to change.

As for when SMN got good personal damage, I have already answered this (and many other concerns you had) earlier in this thread. I've been repeating myself a lot.

[Wyti]

I also said that there are many facets to this like overall difficulty of the job and let's be reasonable SMN is harder to play perfectly and get shafted harder by death.

While I do agree SMN get punished really hard by death, if we're speaking about playing perfectly we can pretty much assume death is not a big factor. Whatever the class is, 1min+ of weakness is enough to ruin your performance.


BLM tends to get punished a lot more for small mistakes. Forgot about the precise timing on a mechanic preventing you from casting (which could be hard to track due to a flexible rotation) and you may end up either losing a few DPS by being forced to fire I instead of 4, or if this happens during the Fire 1 cast (about 1 chance over 4) you may end up having to transpose and lose a lot more.

I would argue that BLM is one of the hardest class in the game to play perfectly as you have to not only have the whole fight planned in advance but also to adapt on the flight to a flexible rotation, 6min into a fight you can't even plan ahead if you'll be in ice or fire even if you're a very consistent player.

Also data seems to agree on this, the lower the percentile is, the more lacking BLM dps tends to be compared to every other classes in the game. Sure at the top level if you're looking at 99+ percentile (or even MAX damage which is meaningless but a lot of people seems to focus on it) BLM may seems in a good spot, but at this point you're comparing classes played perfectly with luck on the side of the players and maybe some catering.
When looking below at still good parses like 90 percentile (reminder that this is the top 10% of raiders, further skewed by having usually more good players parsing than casuals), and BLM start to stop being competitive even on personal damage. at below 70 percentile it falls behind monk, and at very low percentile like 20 which still represent 1/5 of the player base have BLM as the third WORSE PERSONNAL damage.

As a PF group leader, why would I try to take a BLM which even if slightly above average like 60percentile is either doing 5% less damage than a SAM with the same utility, or doing slightly lower damage than a SMN or a MNK both of which have some offensive and defensive utilities ?
lets face it for a purely selfish dps class to even deserve a spot it needs to do more damage than all other classes with utility, a bit like SAM is doing (and arguably this isn't even enough)

[Remedi]

While I do agree SMN get punished really hard by death, if we're speaking about playing perfectly we can pretty much assume death is not a big factor. Whatever the class is, 1min+ of weakness is enough to ruin your performance.


BLM tends to get punished a lot more for small mistakes. Forgot about the precise timing on a mechanic preventing you from casting (which could be hard to track due to a flexible rotation) and you may end up either losing a few DPS by being forced to fire I instead of 4, or if this happens during the Fire 1 cast (about 1 chance over 4) you may end up having to transpose and lose a lot more.

I would argue that BLM is one of the hardest class in the game to play perfectly as you have to not only have the whole fight planned in advance but also to adapt on the flight to a flexible rotation, 6min into a fight you can't even plan ahead if you'll be in ice or fire even if you're a very consistent player.

Also data seems to agree on this, the lower the percentile is, the more lacking BLM dps tends to be compared to every other classes in the game. Sure at the top level if you're looking at 99+ percentile (or even MAX damage which is meaningless but a lot of people seems to focus on it) BLM may seems in a good spot, but at this point you're comparing classes played perfectly with luck on the side of the players and maybe some catering.
When looking below at still good parses like 90 percentile (reminder that this is the top 10% of raiders, further skewed by having usually more good players parsing than casuals), and BLM start to stop being competitive even on personal damage. at below 70 percentile it falls behind monk, and at very low percentile like 20 which still represent 1/5 of the player base have BLM as the third WORSE PERSONNAL damage.

As a PF group leader, why would I try to take a BLM which even if slightly above average like 60percentile is either doing 5% less damage than a SAM with the same utility, or doing slightly lower damage than a SMN or a MNK both of which have some offensive and defensive utilities ?
lets face it for a purely selfish dps class to even deserve a spot it needs to do more damage than all other classes with utility, a bit like SAM is doing (and arguably this isn't even enough)

If we are talking about playing perfectly yes death is not a big factor but balance is not done on perfect play as such I think that argument is valid.
I do agree with the rest, however I dunno if what really needed is either a dmg buff or a cast speed buff atm, or a nerf to SMN utility or personal ds. I have some ideas on that matter but since I don't play the class often I dunno the full extent of what it would lead to. I mean we need also to a have a slight modicum of foresight to see if the cure is better than the illness or we'll back to square one eventually.