Black Mage

[Remedi]

And that's a reason for the job that's got the short end of the stick to not say anything?
Being vocal about how unhappy you are with what they're doing to tour class is important. Look at Smn, they were real loud, now they got pretty much everything they were asking for. Don't just quietly accept it, if there's something you don't like.

Beign loud means nothing if you don't tackle the real problems, most of the smn in the forum had no integrity or they would have understood that using aetherskills during DWT was never the intention of the devs, why I say this? Because when they presented HW SMN they told them what was their intention for it, as such when they found out it wasn't working that way they should have tipped the dev on that, they didn't and they got shafted and now they are still moaning about all of that like kids.
And this is the reasons also why BRD and MCH got buffed to extreme levels during HW.
Beside all of that you should know that ppl will find ANY excuse to bring a class over another, sometimes is just better not to give in to certain deviations that are community driven. So far I see here mostly moans and no real discussions on how to identify and possibly fix eventually problems, but mostly ppl accusing each other about who's a pro raider or who's not

[Neela]

And that's a reason for the job that's got the short end of the stick to not say anything?
Being vocal about how unhappy you are with what they're doing to tour class is important. Look at Smn, they were real loud, now they got pretty much everything they were asking for. Don't just quietly accept it, if there's something you don't like.

"everything" we asked for? well not at all although all the changes a quite nice - they absolutely skipped the MAIN problem and the real issue out in the fog. SMN & MCHs (even MNK like I learned shortly) problems aren't dps or to compete with their rival cls' - their main issue is the "feeling" of clunkiness (for most of the com). so no we haven't got "everything" we asked for, especially not the most important thing: a Bahamut-rework. He's still an Enton-like Lemming... "oh move... where to? ah left... *dangle* *dangle* oh... atk ah na just move on *dangle*... Enton? Enton. Enton!" : /

on a sidenote:
isn't it kinda weird that although we have another caster now - discussions about caster balance are still based on the comparison of Blm vs. Smn but rarely about Blm vs. Rdm - im just wondering why. If Blm are on top Smns cry, if Smns get buffed Blms cry. I assume Rdms are just smiling about those never-ending e-penis war between Blm & Smn... ^^'

[Lelila38]

"everything" we asked for? well not at all although all the changes a quite nice - they absolutely skipped the MAIN problem and the real issue out in the fog. SMN & MCHs (even MNK like I learned shortly) problems aren't dps or to compete with there rival cls' - there main issue is the "feeling" of clunkiness. so no we don't have got "everything" we asked for especially not the most important thing. : /

It said "pretty much everything" as in maybe not everything but most of it. I don't play Smn, I have no clue what you guys problems were or are. I just used it as an example for the fact that there are several high used threads about it and stuff got addressed. No need to be angry at me for saying what I see.
And I was just answering to someone who basically told us to do what we've been doing for a long time, be quiet and hope it gets better. It did not. Blm keeps getting overlooked.

[Neela]

well Blm will never be "overlooked" for long - as we all know its the ceos cls. so maybe she's right they will take a look at blm for sure. saying that im not angry nor ive meant to be. but its kinda hypercritical to say "they got all the want" even if the things were just minor fixes compared to where the problem really lies. It's not that Smn now is on top of the world without any issues - they got more flexibility and mobility yes, but it was always intended to be like this before Rdm dropped - now they got their base-advantage back or even tweaked and everybody screams it is way to powerful.... : /

[Remedi]

I was not saying that they should play the wait game, I was annoyed that they topic has nearly nothing on the analyzation of blm problems but mostly butting head against each other and complaining about what other have

[BlackcatChen]

I was not saying that they should play the wait game, I was annoyed that they topic has nearly nothing on the analyzation of blm problems but mostly butting head against each other and complaining about what other have

It's because BLM's problems are directly related to the way the game is balanced currently. Ranged provide more raid DPS by a fairly significant margin (only slightly less personal dps, but with some of the best raid damage buffs in the game), get affected by mechanics less (no cast times), have better defensive utility (troub, minne, dismantle, pali vs addle and apoc), and better resource utility (refresh vs mana shift). BLM doesn't have a single advantage over them for that slot.

By SE's own words on how they balance jobs, this is just wrong on every level. People are complaining because it's unfair.

You want a real solution? Get rid of disembowel, make trick 5%, and make shadewalker a role action for melee. But since that will probably never happen - buff BLM's personal damage so they would at least be worth it for that.

[Remedi]

It's because BLM's problems are directly related to the way the game is balanced currently. Ranged provide more raid DPS by a fairly significant margin (only slightly less personal dps, but with some of the best raid damage buffs in the game), get affected by mechanics less (no cast times), have better defensive utility (troub, minne, dismantle, pali vs addle and apoc), and better resource utility (refresh vs mana shift). BLM doesn't have a single advantage over them for that slot.

By SE's own words on how they balance jobs, this is just wrong on every level. People are complaining because it's unfair.

You want a real solution? Get rid of disembowel, make trick 5%, and make shadewalker a role action for melee. But since that will probably never happen - buff BLM's personal damage so they would at least be worth it for that.

That's also an effct of ppl not beign good at analyzing what a job should do and mostly asking for dmg buff for their selfish reason, WAR got an unnecessary newe CD that just upset tank balance because they brought nothing to the party.
Guess what they were meant to bring nothing but their dps and defense.
Saying that it's unfair that Ranged dps bring many buff or that BLM doesn't bring a raise to the table won't really solve anything, if dmg is the problem then maybe yes a dmg buff needs to be done, however do take notice that you can't balance the game based on the speedkill meta you can work around that yes but there's always something that will come up on top no matter what.
Also you need to consider how badly jobs are compared to each other really, what is really broken is when a job is so bad that you cannot complete the figth with not when you cannot complete the fight asap, that just invokes unnecessary power creeps

Also tbh I don't consider shadewalker as needed as before now that shirk is a thing tbh

edit: BTW when actually the SMN getting so high on the logs happened? before of after radiant shield dmg was beign accredited to them? last time I checked it was 3-4 weeks after savage release and it wasn't like that, maybe just maybe that is something to look at

[BlackcatChen]

So then... what are the criteria for judging balance between DPS jobs?

How is it not affected by these factors?
- how fast the job helps you kill a fight
- how a job is affected by fight mechanics
- the resources a job helps replenish so that a run can keep going smoothly
- mitigation and defensive utility to help you clear or help with healer damage
- external utility hate or battle res

It doesn't take a genius to note that black mage is worse in every single one of these categories.

If you are worried about job identity isn't the fix obvious? Give BLM more damage.

[Remedi]

It isn't the worse in all of the factors in fact:
You have better personal defensive Cds than other ranged and casters
Also you are not as affected by dying than SMN for example, giving them easier to summon pets doesn't change that yiou lose everything in the demi bahamut department, as a BLM you get set back by at worst 30 secs

So no it's not worse in all those instances, pls we do not need exaggeration we need facts, also you haven't answered me either

[Music4Therapy]

Instead of giving BLM utility, thus changing their identity, I say they make caster comps competitive. I'd love to see comps with SMNs + BLMs working together because they synergize very well. That 10% damage buff for 15 secs on a 60 sec CD from Contagion would be awesome... rather than having all casters fight for 1 single spot in a party.

As it stands, physical damage is so good that many high-end statics don't even take a caster. The way I would go about fixing the current design of the game would take a while, but I believe it would work.

Right now, NIN is amazing. Trick attack is awesome, their personal dps is solid, and their enmity tools and slash debuff (assuming no WAR) allow the tanks to do much more. So its hard not taking one if you're trying to be optimal. That said, what 3 dps go best with NIN? The trio of DRG, BRD, and MCH is insane. BRD and MCH provide amazing rDPS increases and DRG is able to give them both a pretty much 100% up time ~4% increase to their damage via the pierce debuff on top of the rest of utility DRG brings to the table. So long as DRG is the only class that brings a pierce debuff, this will remain the case and NIN+DRG+MCH+BRD will always be the meta, while swapping out BRD or MCH for RDM for progression will be meta pending on which is better at the time.

My solution to the issue would be to introduce a new Tank to the game, either in 4.whatever or next expansion, that was able to apply a pierce debuff. I was thinking Templar from FF Tactics. This would allow caster comps to function because you would no longer be required to take DRG for the pierce debuff and you would have 1-2 slots open for DPS.