Black Mage

[NoctusT]

you can't balance the game based on the speedkill meta you can work around that yes but there's always something that will come up on top no matter what.

The problem still persists, even if you remove speedkills from consideration. The OP talked about the homogenization of the caster role as well. In Creator for ex, you could still take a BLM into prog because apoc still had some good use in fights like A12S. Right now, with apoc being available to every caster, and with the addition of RDM, there's just no reason you would ever take BLM into prog for a fight. Since, as mentioned multiple times by everyone here, we don't do enough damage to justify taking us into progression NOR for farming the fights afterwards.

The speedkill meta is only one facet of the problem. Since SE is so hellbent on buffing damage for other jobs, why not help BLM too?

[Remedi]

The problem still persists, even if you remove speedkills from consideration. The OP talked about the homogenization of the caster role as well. In Creator for ex, you could still take a BLM into prog because apoc still had some good use in fights like A12S. Right now, with apoc being available to every caster, and with the addition of RDM, there's just no reason you would ever take BLM into prog for a fight. Since, as mentioned multiple times by everyone here, we don't do enough damage to justify taking us into progression NOR for farming the fights afterwards.

The speedkill meta is only one facet of the problem. Since SE is so hellbent on buffing damage for other jobs, why not help BLM too?

I also said that there are many facets to this like overall difficulty of the job and let's be reasonable SMN is harder to play perfectly and get shafted harder by death.
I do agree that a dmg buff could solve some problems, but as other have pointed there's also the fact that melee synergy or ranged synergy are simply better.
In theory SMN having high dmg would help BLM+SMN comp, however that is not the case as we know or maybe it hasn't been tested enough.
Anyway seems to me that now the discussion is going somewhere at least, which was my intention

[BlackcatChen]

I also said that there are many facets to this like overall difficulty of the job and let's be reasonable SMN is harder to play perfectly and get shafted harder by death.
I do agree that a dmg buff could solve some problems, but as other have pointed there's also the fact that melee synergy or ranged synergy are simply better.
In theory SMN having high dmg would help BLM+SMN comp, however that is not the case as we know or maybe it hasn't been tested enough.
Anyway seems to me that now the discussion is going somewhere at least, which was my intention

Recovery from death becomes proper utility when a sac is used as a strategy (A4S, A8S), and early prog (an environment where RDM would be better, by far). The other reason why a BLM/SMN comp is not too valuable is because Ifrit is simply better than Garuda right now, and Ifrit also helps the naturally better physical comps as a plus. You also lose out on Ranged defensive and resource utility, which is strictly better.

As for ranged, most problems seem to stem from balancing around not having Disembowel. But because of how this game is right now... you're going to have it in an 8 man party. When they have Disembowel, their damage becomes dangerously close to casters despite being kings of utility. And because we don't have any proper distinction between a Caster and Ranged other than "one has cast times", there's no real reason not to use double ranged. Because it simply does more damage, more utility, and resource management. And since double ranged is this good and works proper because of DRG, now DRG is a staple. Especially since Litany synergizes with BRD. Simply getting rid of Disembowel would make both DRG and ranged provide less damage, and help steer the game off the double ranged boat it has been in since 3.3.

As for the NIN change I suggested, the reasoning is very simple. Trick Attack being 10% has always been ridiculous. They have been dominating their slot forever. They've contributed more damage than any other job since they were released. And they don't just help a single role, that 10% for 17%+ of the fight goes for everyone. Most larger buffs got nerfed, but Trick stayed 10%. I noted Shadewalker because it definitely allows a tank to use less/no hate combo and tank stance, improving the DPS of the raid further. It still has a big effect, even now that Shirk exists. I've seen several tanks try to play like they have Shadewalker, in a PF with no NIN. Some unsuspecting SAM ends up getting hit in the face, even using Diversion on cooldown. It would also even force BLM to take diversion over apocatastasis or mana shift (you ain't getting rid of addle or swiftcast) for the same reasons, even though you're already saving lucid dreaming for hate.

Bringing DRG/NIN/BRD/MCH balance in line helps several classes. It helps MNK and SAM over DRG and NIN. It helps BLM/SMN/RDM over BRD and MCH. Right now replacing any one of those classes is a clear loss, and something should definitely happen to make party choice a bit more variable. We've had the same god comp since 3.3, something has to change.

As for when SMN got good personal damage, I have already answered this (and many other concerns you had) earlier in this thread. I've been repeating myself a lot.

[Wyti]

I also said that there are many facets to this like overall difficulty of the job and let's be reasonable SMN is harder to play perfectly and get shafted harder by death.

While I do agree SMN get punished really hard by death, if we're speaking about playing perfectly we can pretty much assume death is not a big factor. Whatever the class is, 1min+ of weakness is enough to ruin your performance.


BLM tends to get punished a lot more for small mistakes. Forgot about the precise timing on a mechanic preventing you from casting (which could be hard to track due to a flexible rotation) and you may end up either losing a few DPS by being forced to fire I instead of 4, or if this happens during the Fire 1 cast (about 1 chance over 4) you may end up having to transpose and lose a lot more.

I would argue that BLM is one of the hardest class in the game to play perfectly as you have to not only have the whole fight planned in advance but also to adapt on the flight to a flexible rotation, 6min into a fight you can't even plan ahead if you'll be in ice or fire even if you're a very consistent player.

Also data seems to agree on this, the lower the percentile is, the more lacking BLM dps tends to be compared to every other classes in the game. Sure at the top level if you're looking at 99+ percentile (or even MAX damage which is meaningless but a lot of people seems to focus on it) BLM may seems in a good spot, but at this point you're comparing classes played perfectly with luck on the side of the players and maybe some catering.
When looking below at still good parses like 90 percentile (reminder that this is the top 10% of raiders, further skewed by having usually more good players parsing than casuals), and BLM start to stop being competitive even on personal damage. at below 70 percentile it falls behind monk, and at very low percentile like 20 which still represent 1/5 of the player base have BLM as the third WORSE PERSONNAL damage.

As a PF group leader, why would I try to take a BLM which even if slightly above average like 60percentile is either doing 5% less damage than a SAM with the same utility, or doing slightly lower damage than a SMN or a MNK both of which have some offensive and defensive utilities ?
lets face it for a purely selfish dps class to even deserve a spot it needs to do more damage than all other classes with utility, a bit like SAM is doing (and arguably this isn't even enough)

[Remedi]

While I do agree SMN get punished really hard by death, if we're speaking about playing perfectly we can pretty much assume death is not a big factor. Whatever the class is, 1min+ of weakness is enough to ruin your performance.


BLM tends to get punished a lot more for small mistakes. Forgot about the precise timing on a mechanic preventing you from casting (which could be hard to track due to a flexible rotation) and you may end up either losing a few DPS by being forced to fire I instead of 4, or if this happens during the Fire 1 cast (about 1 chance over 4) you may end up having to transpose and lose a lot more.

I would argue that BLM is one of the hardest class in the game to play perfectly as you have to not only have the whole fight planned in advance but also to adapt on the flight to a flexible rotation, 6min into a fight you can't even plan ahead if you'll be in ice or fire even if you're a very consistent player.

Also data seems to agree on this, the lower the percentile is, the more lacking BLM dps tends to be compared to every other classes in the game. Sure at the top level if you're looking at 99+ percentile (or even MAX damage which is meaningless but a lot of people seems to focus on it) BLM may seems in a good spot, but at this point you're comparing classes played perfectly with luck on the side of the players and maybe some catering.
When looking below at still good parses like 90 percentile (reminder that this is the top 10% of raiders, further skewed by having usually more good players parsing than casuals), and BLM start to stop being competitive even on personal damage. at below 70 percentile it falls behind monk, and at very low percentile like 20 which still represent 1/5 of the player base have BLM as the third WORSE PERSONNAL damage.

As a PF group leader, why would I try to take a BLM which even if slightly above average like 60percentile is either doing 5% less damage than a SAM with the same utility, or doing slightly lower damage than a SMN or a MNK both of which have some offensive and defensive utilities ?
lets face it for a purely selfish dps class to even deserve a spot it needs to do more damage than all other classes with utility, a bit like SAM is doing (and arguably this isn't even enough)

If we are talking about playing perfectly yes death is not a big factor but balance is not done on perfect play as such I think that argument is valid.
I do agree with the rest, however I dunno if what really needed is either a dmg buff or a cast speed buff atm, or a nerf to SMN utility or personal ds. I have some ideas on that matter but since I don't play the class often I dunno the full extent of what it would lead to. I mean we need also to a have a slight modicum of foresight to see if the cure is better than the illness or we'll back to square one eventually.

[TsuKoj]

If we are talking about playing perfectly yes death is not a big factor but balance is not done on perfect play as such I think that argument is valid.
I do agree with the rest, however I dunno if what really needed is either a dmg buff or a cast speed buff atm, or a nerf to SMN utility or personal ds. I have some ideas on that matter but since I don't play the class often I dunno the full extent of what it would lead to. I mean we need also to a have a slight modicum of foresight to see if the cure is better than the illness or we'll back to square one eventually.

Actually balance should only ever be done at perfect play, since that is the maximum capability of the class.* I also don't think smn should be nerfed, I think casters in general need to be buffed. Rdm should be as good as brd/mch, smn should be as good as nin/drg/mnk, blm should be as good as sam(although sam isn't in a great spot either). There should be parity between the physical and magic classes. The whole ranged is an utility thing se is clinging onto is just false in most relevant content. It was true when leveling and it was true in arr. But now when every boss has room wide aoes, stack markers, a scripted dance, dps targeted aoes, and dynamo style aoes; range is no longer a benefit, and since ranged gets punished with cast timers already, being melee might actually be the utility.

*Utility/ability based around having messed up badly never ends up well. In competitive games they are not even considered a benefit at all. In shooters/mobas you wouldn't ever take an ability that says you only give up half a kill/half the gold to the enemy if you die over something like just a +10% more damage. Ones hedging on you being bad, the other is betting on you being good.

[Remedi]

Actually balance should only ever be done at perfect play, since that is the maximum capability of the class. I also don't think smn should be nerfed, I think casters in general need to be buffed. Rdm should be as good as brd/mch, smn should be as good as nin/drg/mnk, blm should be as good as sam(although sam isn't in a great spot either). There should be parity between the physical and magic classes. The whole ranged is an utility thing se is clinging onto is just false in most relevant content. It was true when leveling and it was true in arr. But now when every boss has room wide aoes, stack markers, a scripted dance, dps targeted aoes, and dynamo style aoes; range is no longer a benefit, and since ranged gets punished with cast timers already, being melee might actually be the utility.

Balance beign done at perfect play and perfect gear is the reason why on some games classes are broken.
It's not the perfect players that are heard the most by devs, but the other ones, why you think BRD and MCH got buffed so much in HW? because on some feelings those jobs felt weak, not realizing that changes to them can create butterfly unpredicted butterfly effects, that is the reason I don't talk about what they should do to SMN imho because I don't know exactly how it'll change the situation, selfish dps is a bit easier to predict because of that.
Also pls if you think that other guy is not right, I don't get what you'll achieve by antagonizing him further it'll just derail the discussion imho

[TsuKoj]

Also pls if you think that other guy is not right, I don't get what you'll achieve by antagonizing him further it'll just derail the discussion imho

Your right, but it is a symbol of our difference in thinking about balance. Since blm is an easy to learn and hard to master class, balance issues and concerns at higher levels of play often get drowned out by a lot of more casual players saying there is no issue with the class since it's working well at their levels of play. I realize blms are fine in expert roulette, and in expert trials, and can clear the current savage, however even then there are glaring issues with the class that does need to be addressed, and having someone say it's fine when they obviously haven't yet reached the point where the issues arises is frustrating.

[Kabooa]

If we are talking about playing perfectly yes death is not a big factor but balance is not done on perfect play as such I think that argument is valid.
I do agree with the rest, however I dunno if what really needed is either a dmg buff or a cast speed buff atm.

Jobs aren't balanced around the assumption that they die. That's honestly kind of ridiculous to say.

However, Black Mages in general seem to be divided on the best way to solve this. Some want more damage. I'm in the camp where I'd like a unique utility tool or targeted buff that the other casters don't bring.

Damage fixes are bandage fixes, while tools unique to a job / role generally allow you to build more interesting compositions than "It's like PDPS, but with a black mage"

[Remedi]

Normally they aren't but since Ress in combat are a thing in this game, it's something that I would consider as a dev, I dunno if they do, surely is a topic some use.

If you ask me I still believe they can sort out the pure dmg thing with support dmg thing, however it depends on them beign true to the stance which so far was not so much upheld (although I was able to predict some changes here and there to try and rectify their mistakes)
Honestly though the ship is sailed so I don't expect anything more than bandain from now