Tanks Letting DPS Die

[Llus]

Coincounter, the second Boss in Aurum Vale, resets the emnity table halfway through the fight all of the sudden.

And I am pretty sure there are another one or two who do the same, though this one I only managed to recall off the bat since I ran it recently.

See my previous post, that's a mechanic and works as intended.

[Neela]

As a general rule, pulling aggro off a tank is *always* the DPS' fault, never the tank's (no matter how much he/she sucks).

And, sure, it's frustrating to take the blame for pulling aggro because the tank is selfishly dpsing or whatever. Still your damn fault if you take aggro off of him. It's your enmity, you're the ONLY one who has control of it. Get over it. (...) There's is only one case where grabbing aggro from a tank is the tank's fault and I addressed that in my initial post.

this is just your personal opinion. the tanks enmity skills are designed the way that they should (easily) hold the aggro no matter what kind of magic trick any dd is supposed to present. if tanks lose enmity its their fucking fault cause they miscalculated their amount. the dds just did their job: DPS – in this case most probably "good" dps.

if a tank lose enmity its his personal fault of what ever reasons and there are straight more than just one, oversaw a mob? wrong stance? wrong combo? wrong target? - anything but not the dds fault. what kind of world we would life in if dds have to hold themselves back just for the fact that tanks can say "Im used to play aggressively" - cmn even a one-eyed pirate would see, thats wrong. so no you have to get over it.

The tank's responsibility is not to cap his group's dps. (...) your responsibilities don't change.

it actually is his responsibility. end of story.


edit:

DPS single targeting during an AoE pull is understandably DPS fault. DPS prepulling mobs is understandably DPS fault. DPS spike damage 1.5 seconds into a pull is understandably DPS fault.

But... seriously? You have one job. Tank Stance, Shield Lobe, Flash, Enmity Combo. SE has buffed tank's enmity generation to the moon. You simply fail as a tank, if any DPS can rip hate from you. Where is your pride as tank?!

exactly.

[Yneko]

If I get it right, I, as a monk for example, have aggro tools in form of ONE 120s cooldown that halves the enmity I generate and usually isn't up for every trash pull and I definitely have to make sure it's ready for opener on boss. Tank has aggro tools in form of a GCD combo and other GCDs/oGCDs (based on job) including 2 provokes plus tank stance that has additional enmity modifier. Therefore, based on the quantity and quality of both jobs' aggro tools, it is my (monk's) responsibility to not pull hate from enemies.

Also, if I did use my ONE 120s (!!!) aggro reducing cooldown and went full ham on boss, it is still my fault if I did more dmg than tank was expecting and I was supposed to hold back using any skills (and loose/waste any buffs I have) until the enmity gap between me and tank will be safe again. And if the tank decided to use enmity combo I should also say I'm sorry he had to and promise it will never happen again.

Basically, if you queue as DPS into dungeon there are only 2 outcomes:
1. If you are good at your job = you are the bad one, because you don't care for tank's dps,
2. if you are bad at you job = everyone on reddit/OF complains about you and other DDs in DF doing low dps.

Good. Makes sense.

[Venoshock]

If I get it right, I, as a monk for example, have aggro tools in form of ONE 120s cooldown that halves the enmity I generate and usually isn't up for every trash pull and I definitely have to make sure it's ready for opener on boss. Tank has aggro tools in form of a GCD combo and other GCDs/oGCDs (based on job) including 2 provokes plus tank stance that has additional enmity modifier. Therefore, based on the quantity and quality of both jobs' aggro tools, it is my (monk's) responsibility to not pull hate from enemies.

Also, if I did use my ONE 120s (!!!) aggro reducing cooldown and went full ham on boss, it is still my fault if I did more dmg than tank was expecting and I was supposed to hold back using any skills (and loose/waste any buffs I have) until the enmity gap between me and tank will be safe again. And if the tank decided to use enmity combo I should also say I'm sorry he had to and promise it will never happen again.

Basically, if you queue as DPS into dungeon there are only 2 outcomes:
1. If you are good at your job = you are the bad one, because you don't care for tank's dps,
2. if you are bad at you job = everyone on reddit/OF complains about you and other DDs in DF doing low dps.

Good. Makes sense.

Um no, nobody is saying that. Like at all lol. You've used diversion. You did your job. Just don't do stupid crap like single target on AOE pulls and pull for the tank.

this is just your personal opinion. the tanks enmity skills are designed the way that they should (easily) hold the aggro no matter what kind of magic trick any dd is supposed to present. if tanks lose enmity its their fucking fault cause they miscalculated their amount. the dds just did their job: DPS – in this case most probably "good" dps.

if a tank lose enmity its his personal fault of what ever reasons and there are straight more than just one, oversaw a mob? wrong stance? wrong combo? wrong target? - anything but not the dds fault. what kind of world we would life in if dds have to hold themselves back just for the fact that tanks can say "Im used to play aggressively" - cmn even a one-eyed pirate would see, thats wrong. so no you have to get over it.


its the tanks responsibility. end of story.

Lmao, it goes both ways. DPS have abilities to lower aggro generation/cut a % of it off. They should be using those and if they don't and rip aggro off the tank, they are to blame.

'bu-bu-but tank has abilities to build aggro like powerslash1!!', Sure, they do. But 'yeah, lets not use our enimity control abilities and purposefully lower the tanks DPS because we can't be bothered to use an oGCD role ability which doesn't cost us any dps but completely screws the tanks dps hard, because fuck them!'

I get it, you're probably one of those dps that ironically doesn't care about overall party dps, but just use your damn utility, it's one button lmao. You're a bad dps if you don't, in the same way a tank is bad if they don't use their CDs and still loses aggro to a DPS that uses thier aggro dumping abilities.

[Neela]

yeah sure its vice versa but – but its not that dds should use these for every trash pull/mob just because the tank is to ego to switch to his fucking named "tank" stance thats what its all about – if someone is to inexperienced with stance dance in a proper way - he just should use tank stance more than dps stance until he got the twist of dancing in between.

but blaming dds for too much dps/enmity is just an excuse of yourselfs incapability. me myself won't ever stop dpsing midfight just because the tank thinks he has to stayin dps-stance. im totally there with Karshan, Wintersand and Frizze on this point.

[Frizze]

Um no, nobody is saying that. Like at all lol. You've used diversion. You did your job. Just don't do stupid crap like single target on AOE pulls and pull for the tank.

That is essentially what EaMett has been arguing for like five pages. If the DPS takes hate for any reason theyre bad. The tank might also be bad. Diversion/Lucid isnt enough, you have to stop attacking too if the tank did a bad job building an enmity lead(or didnt care to in the first place). I fully agree that a DPS should use all their tools, no argument at all from me. I hated leveling archer to get quelling strikes back when that was a thing, but i did it because i knew how important it was. But "stop attacking mid-fight" isnt a tool, its a waste of everyones time. I wouldnt single out one random enemy from a pack of 10 to kill when i could aoe them all, so why would i stop attacking mid-fight so you can re-build a lead? Ill walk the enemy back to you if it left the pack, ill tank it myself, whatever. But im not going to stop. Hell, ive tanked whole dungeons when an under-geared tank couldnt keep hate off me/the healer, so it wouldnt even be the first time.

[Tsilyi]

Coincounter, the second Boss in Aurum Vale, resets the emnity table halfway through the fight all of the sudden.

And I am pretty sure there are another one or two who do the same, though this one I only managed to recall off the bat since I ran it recently.

I've never had coincounter reset enmity. he simply targets random individuals for eye of the beholder and glower.

to the point of the thread: it is the tank's fault if the dps uses enmity tools and CAN grab aggro, but the dps should hold back if pulling aggro will endanger the group or make the healer's job impossible. then afterward the tank can be taught how to correctly maintain aggro.

[silverlunarfox]

I only let them die, or get close to dying if they purposely pull mobs. I understand accidental pulls. It happens.

It's natural some DPS will gain alot of aggro with their rotations, I view it as a challenge and adjust accordingly. But I'm a stance dancer tank. I will start in tank stance then switch to offensive. I know when to switch back and forth if needed.

But you go an pull a mob that I didn't, it's all yours buddy. But as a previous previous said, that was the general rule when bards were running around pulling all the things. It doesn't happen as much anymore thankfully.

[Neela]

I only let them die, or get close to dying if they purposely pull mobs. I understand accidental pulls. It happens.

It's natural some DPS will gain alot of aggro with their rotations, I view it as a challenge and adjust accordingly. But I'm a stance dancer tank. I will start in tank stance then switch to offensive. I know when to switch back and forth if needed. .

now this is how a tank should think and act like - take it as a challenge but don't cry for no reason <3

[Mavrias]

As soon as I read this I thought, "Why did only one break away?" Are you using a single target rotation while everyone else is aoe-ing?

Damage fall off on most aoes in the game make this entirely possible. Usually on my BLM if I've ripped hate on my main target for fire 2/flare/foul I know that the other mobs likely arent too far behind.