Tanks Letting DPS Die

[Xerek]

"Muh DPS!"

Sadly, this statement is what FF XIV is built around, regardless of role. Tanks running in DPS stance, refusing to swap back to tank stance when the aggro table gets iffy. Claiming the DPS should use aggro deflection, then if the DPS do, they claim the DPS should hold back. Then the 101 flammable threads about healers that don't DPS. And, of course, you get DPS who, even if they see their tank is struggling, refuse to give up even a single point of DPS to help. The job of the tank is to DPS hard, oh, and maybe manage aggro. The job of a healer is to DPS hard, oh, and heal a little. The job of the DPS is to DPS balls to the wall no matter what. That's the current mindset, and parsers are a large reason why. It's not about efficiency, party symmetry, or heaven forbid having fun. It's about having that high number on the parser.

Now, don't get me wrong, the game itself definately carries some blame. Why are raiders so focused on DPS? Because raids have enrage timers and your raid group needs to wring every last drop of DPS out like a moist dishrag in the desert or you'll likely wipe. And the game allows tanks and healers to do too much damage. If it were a case where tanks and healers could contribute a little DPS here and there, people wouldn't focus on it as much. But currently in XIV tanks and healers can put out so much damage that there is a notable drop-off when they don't. We're not talking about shaving a minute or two off a dungeon, we're talking several. If a nervous peasant has a dagger, I'm not going to be as frustrated if he doesn't use it, but if that same peasant has a handgun, I'm going to get cranky if he isn't opening fire, even if I have an automatic rifle.

FFXIV's design is such that it encourages this DPS above all mentality. Couple that with parsers and it's easy to see why this game's playerbase as a whole has adopted a DPS > All Else mindset. Of course there are exceptions. As a healer, I prioritize healing and weave in DPS where I can. As a tank, I will do everything in my power to regain lost aggro, including swapping back into tank stance if needed and sacrificing DPS. As a DPS I will use all my emnity flushes and even ease up on the DPS if the tank is honestly struggling. But I know the prevalent mindset doesn't match mine. Sadly, FF XIV would require a core philosophical shift to address this issue. Tank and healer damage would have to be slashed to levels that make it a nice, small bonus, not a signifigant contribution to total instance damage...which would immediately cause wailing, screaming, torches and pitchforks. So, sadly, I expect the "Muh DPS!" mindset to continue for quite some time.

[Ekimmak]

Tank and healer damage would have to be slashed to levels that make it a nice, small bonus, not a signifigant contribution to total instance damage...which would immediately cause wailing, screaming, torches and pitchforks. So, sadly, I expect the "Muh DPS!" mindset to continue for quite some time.

Mostly because it would make more than a few instanced missions an obscene pain if your damage dealt becomes a pittance.

[Cynfael]

Mostly because it would make more than a few instanced missions an obscene pain if your damage dealt becomes a pittance.

That, of course, and I don't think people know what they are asking for when they wish for tank and healer damage potential to be decreased. Been there and done that with games where supporting roles are so weak in offense as to be functionally dependent on others to get anything done in a timely manner. No, thank you.

Even in the context of a dungeon I wouldn't want to be purely dependent on the DPS to progress. It's happened many times that the DPS are lagging, disconnected, or just plain bad/not participating, and healer and tank damage made the difference between "tolerable" and "we should disband, because this will take 90 minutes."

[DRKoftheAzure]

snip

At least you don't go on DRK and healer asks you to big pulls in any dungeon and you respond with no and hey throw a big nasty fit about and kick you because you said no... or just do it and healer can't keep and basically the healer goes "maybe we shouldn't do big pulls..." which can happen it's just that it is VERY RARE and is like trying to a get the right 280 Diadem Weapon WITH the right stats which that in itself is equivalent to finding Jesus... but luckily not THAT level of VERY RARE...

[Sylvain]

It happened once, me and my friend kept pulling the aggro and the tank wouldn't care, not even in tank stance. After a few death and both of us tanking the first boss. We started to wait that he'd bring a pack down to 60% before dpsing. It didn't take long before he started complaining. He wanted to kick us but unfortunately we were all 3 together against him. He ended leaving and we got a normal tank

[DeadlySevenSins]

Currently having this issue in my static, it's been a work in progress. People can argue it's a group effort, but when it's continually same problem with a tank then there is clearly an issue on their part. I also want to note that Diversion can only go so far, it's not really a good option to rely on. Rando's in dungeons are a little harder to tell. Although I do run across this all the time in 24-m... it seems every tank wants to take it easy and just dps, I have had to raise so many dps (or I die as a healer) a lot of times.

[hynaku]

Happens a lot to me. They want pull huge groups but when use attack that hits all monsters tanks can't hold all the agro then I die.

[Llugen]

I didn't read any of this thread save for the OP but my take on it is that there is a meaningful balance between accommodating party members and being ridiculous. I'll rapid-fire off a few examples.

-If I'm a BLM/SMN and a tank is pulling mobs one at a time, I'm probably going to pull more and expect them to be able to handle it without "letting them kill me" because my AOE damage is significantly stronger/faster.
-If I'm a tank and I've made a big AOE pull and a DPS is whaling on a single target, I might try to keep it from him for a little bit but if he doesn't realize that AOE damage would be much better suited to the situation then I might just let him keep it (and possibly die) as it brings down our entire party's efficiency.
-It's not a big deal to me as a tank if a monk shoulder tackles into a boss to keep greased and I just have to tomahawk; the keeping of greased is a bigger overall gain than my waiting ~10s for berserk or whatever. This is something that tanks need to step off their pride about.
-On this note, if I'm a Bard and my raging strikes is about to run off I might just dot up a mob that hasn't been pulled yet simply because the tank is about to pull it anyway. Again this is not a moment for tanks to get incredulous about it, this is about maximum damage. When I play tank, I understand this and accommodate accordingly.
-If a Bard accidentally pulls mobs with Foe Requiem I'm not going to punish them for doing their job, so as the tank I'm going to pick up the mobs.
-If I'm on BLM and I'm dangerously close to pulling enmity and the tank is in DPS stance, you bet your bottom I'm going to dump using Lucid Dreaming. It is to my benefit not to get my face eaten and to the tank's benefit to remain in DPS stance.
-If I'm a melee in a dungeon with a ranged and there's an add far away from the boss I'm going to expect the ranged to kill it rather than waste my time walking over to it and walking back and/or gap closing. This being said, I'll still be watching to make sure it happens. Trust but verify.
-If I'm playing ANY job I am going to make sure I am efficiently using my utilities/role pool skills. Tactician for TP starved melee, palisade for tanks for autoattack damage, the list goes on and on. This is the reason we have these skills, to work together.
-If I'm playing healer and someone is consistently dying to the same mechanic I might just leave them dead rather than spend my MP and uptime trying to babysit them. On that note, if you die in a dungeon pull ALWAYS respawn and shortcut to avoid weakness and the downtime from trying to cast raise.
-Believe it or not, if you can take a hit and know that you won't die as a DPS, you should probably just do it if it's a gain. For instance, BLM gets Manaward to protect itself from aoes and such. Use it. This is tender, since you don't really want your healer to be doting on you and therefore losing their own uptime, but within reason.
-If I am on paladin, I am support. I use intervention and cover to protect players and allow them to maximize their uptime/save them. This is why the job has these skills. Clemency is a bit of an exception since it's a GCD, I'll definitely use it in an emergency, but if its something that reasonably can be covered by the healer I won't bother.
-Remember that enmity management is the responsibility of the entire party (this goes hand in hand with the above bullet on Lucid Dreaming on BLM). It is not solely the tank's responsibility to spam enmity combo (and therefore lose significant damage) simply because I won't use diversion/lucid/tactician etc. Make sure your tanks are utilizing provoke+shirk in 8 man content, use smokescreen, elusive jump, shadewalker. We have these tools to maximize our efficiency (damage), so we should use them, EVEN in the duty finder.

All these things are important to keep in mind. Situations are barely as cut and dry as "oh yeah you should always let someone die/always save someone". In my opinion, approach all situations from a perspective of compassion, rather than irritation. If a player isn't doing something you like perhaps there is a reason. Perhaps not. Communicate about it, that will probably help too.

[SeranaEclipse]

Tanks need to stop healing with there cd's, tanks need to put all markers down and are expected to teach everyone the fights if new, tanks need to make sure every one is happy and having a nice day. we have to pull small or we get shouted at, we have to pull big or get shouted at. we have to not dps or we get shouted at, we have to dps or we get shouted out. crazy idea here tho! how about everyone else uses there skills and knowledge like we seem to have to? sure there are bad players of every kind but the amount of stress both healers and tanks get because a dps is too lazy to move from an aoe and dies, or decides to use all there big cd's at the start while still pulling mobs into a nice tidy group for them to use there cd's and kill faster then dies because oh surprise we can not hold agro on mobs you are hitting 10ft away while we are mid pull. Tanking and healing really is a job and people wounder why no one wants to do them anymore.

Tank's should not let the dps die if they can help it but not everything is on them or the healer. We each have a role to fulfill but most seem to forget that part and opt on to giving others grief when things go wrong or rather then helpful advice, snarky comments.

[Cynfael]

Tanks need to stop healing with there cd's.

This is a pet peeve of mine when I heal, but I try to give benefit of the doubt to offending tanks unless they are being blatantly absurd with Clemency spam.

From the tank’s perspective, they run with bad healers and die if they don’t self-sustain; then they run with good healers and get major side-eye for backseat healing and wasting their time and MP. I remind myself of this whenever I feel like smacking a DF tank upside the head.

In before someone launches into an explanation of how Clemency can help healers AoE more, because that kind of coordination is not a thing in DF, and healers have oGCD heals for a reason.