Tanks Letting DPS Die

[Neela]

As a general rule, pulling aggro off a tank is *always* the DPS' fault, never the tank's (no matter how much he/she sucks).

And, sure, it's frustrating to take the blame for pulling aggro because the tank is selfishly dpsing or whatever. Still your damn fault if you take aggro off of him. It's your enmity, you're the ONLY one who has control of it. Get over it. (...) There's is only one case where grabbing aggro from a tank is the tank's fault and I addressed that in my initial post.

this is just your personal opinion. the tanks enmity skills are designed the way that they should (easily) hold the aggro no matter what kind of magic trick any dd is supposed to present. if tanks lose enmity its their fucking fault cause they miscalculated their amount. the dds just did their job: DPS – in this case most probably "good" dps.

if a tank lose enmity its his personal fault of what ever reasons and there are straight more than just one, oversaw a mob? wrong stance? wrong combo? wrong target? - anything but not the dds fault. what kind of world we would life in if dds have to hold themselves back just for the fact that tanks can say "Im used to play aggressively" - cmn even a one-eyed pirate would see, thats wrong. so no you have to get over it.

The tank's responsibility is not to cap his group's dps. (...) your responsibilities don't change.

it actually is his responsibility. end of story.


edit:

DPS single targeting during an AoE pull is understandably DPS fault. DPS prepulling mobs is understandably DPS fault. DPS spike damage 1.5 seconds into a pull is understandably DPS fault.

But... seriously? You have one job. Tank Stance, Shield Lobe, Flash, Enmity Combo. SE has buffed tank's enmity generation to the moon. You simply fail as a tank, if any DPS can rip hate from you. Where is your pride as tank?!

exactly.

[Yneko]

If I get it right, I, as a monk for example, have aggro tools in form of ONE 120s cooldown that halves the enmity I generate and usually isn't up for every trash pull and I definitely have to make sure it's ready for opener on boss. Tank has aggro tools in form of a GCD combo and other GCDs/oGCDs (based on job) including 2 provokes plus tank stance that has additional enmity modifier. Therefore, based on the quantity and quality of both jobs' aggro tools, it is my (monk's) responsibility to not pull hate from enemies.

Also, if I did use my ONE 120s (!!!) aggro reducing cooldown and went full ham on boss, it is still my fault if I did more dmg than tank was expecting and I was supposed to hold back using any skills (and loose/waste any buffs I have) until the enmity gap between me and tank will be safe again. And if the tank decided to use enmity combo I should also say I'm sorry he had to and promise it will never happen again.

Basically, if you queue as DPS into dungeon there are only 2 outcomes:
1. If you are good at your job = you are the bad one, because you don't care for tank's dps,
2. if you are bad at you job = everyone on reddit/OF complains about you and other DDs in DF doing low dps.

Good. Makes sense.

[Venoshock]

If I get it right, I, as a monk for example, have aggro tools in form of ONE 120s cooldown that halves the enmity I generate and usually isn't up for every trash pull and I definitely have to make sure it's ready for opener on boss. Tank has aggro tools in form of a GCD combo and other GCDs/oGCDs (based on job) including 2 provokes plus tank stance that has additional enmity modifier. Therefore, based on the quantity and quality of both jobs' aggro tools, it is my (monk's) responsibility to not pull hate from enemies.

Also, if I did use my ONE 120s (!!!) aggro reducing cooldown and went full ham on boss, it is still my fault if I did more dmg than tank was expecting and I was supposed to hold back using any skills (and loose/waste any buffs I have) until the enmity gap between me and tank will be safe again. And if the tank decided to use enmity combo I should also say I'm sorry he had to and promise it will never happen again.

Basically, if you queue as DPS into dungeon there are only 2 outcomes:
1. If you are good at your job = you are the bad one, because you don't care for tank's dps,
2. if you are bad at you job = everyone on reddit/OF complains about you and other DDs in DF doing low dps.

Good. Makes sense.

Um no, nobody is saying that. Like at all lol. You've used diversion. You did your job. Just don't do stupid crap like single target on AOE pulls and pull for the tank.

this is just your personal opinion. the tanks enmity skills are designed the way that they should (easily) hold the aggro no matter what kind of magic trick any dd is supposed to present. if tanks lose enmity its their fucking fault cause they miscalculated their amount. the dds just did their job: DPS – in this case most probably "good" dps.

if a tank lose enmity its his personal fault of what ever reasons and there are straight more than just one, oversaw a mob? wrong stance? wrong combo? wrong target? - anything but not the dds fault. what kind of world we would life in if dds have to hold themselves back just for the fact that tanks can say "Im used to play aggressively" - cmn even a one-eyed pirate would see, thats wrong. so no you have to get over it.


its the tanks responsibility. end of story.

Lmao, it goes both ways. DPS have abilities to lower aggro generation/cut a % of it off. They should be using those and if they don't and rip aggro off the tank, they are to blame.

'bu-bu-but tank has abilities to build aggro like powerslash1!!', Sure, they do. But 'yeah, lets not use our enimity control abilities and purposefully lower the tanks DPS because we can't be bothered to use an oGCD role ability which doesn't cost us any dps but completely screws the tanks dps hard, because fuck them!'

I get it, you're probably one of those dps that ironically doesn't care about overall party dps, but just use your damn utility, it's one button lmao. You're a bad dps if you don't, in the same way a tank is bad if they don't use their CDs and still loses aggro to a DPS that uses thier aggro dumping abilities.

[Frizze]

Um no, nobody is saying that. Like at all lol. You've used diversion. You did your job. Just don't do stupid crap like single target on AOE pulls and pull for the tank.

That is essentially what EaMett has been arguing for like five pages. If the DPS takes hate for any reason theyre bad. The tank might also be bad. Diversion/Lucid isnt enough, you have to stop attacking too if the tank did a bad job building an enmity lead(or didnt care to in the first place). I fully agree that a DPS should use all their tools, no argument at all from me. I hated leveling archer to get quelling strikes back when that was a thing, but i did it because i knew how important it was. But "stop attacking mid-fight" isnt a tool, its a waste of everyones time. I wouldnt single out one random enemy from a pack of 10 to kill when i could aoe them all, so why would i stop attacking mid-fight so you can re-build a lead? Ill walk the enemy back to you if it left the pack, ill tank it myself, whatever. But im not going to stop. Hell, ive tanked whole dungeons when an under-geared tank couldnt keep hate off me/the healer, so it wouldnt even be the first time.

[EaMett]

If I get it right, I, as a monk for example, have aggro tools in form of ONE 120s cooldown that halves the enmity I generate and usually isn't up for every trash pull and I definitely have to make sure it's ready for opener on boss. Tank has aggro tools in form of a GCD combo and other GCDs/oGCDs (based on job) including 2 provokes plus tank stance that has additional enmity modifier. Therefore, based on the quantity and quality of both jobs' aggro tools, it is my (monk's) responsibility to not pull hate from enemies.

Also, if I did use my ONE 120s (!!!) aggro reducing cooldown and went full ham on boss, it is still my fault if I did more dmg than tank was expecting and I was supposed to hold back using any skills (and loose/waste any buffs I have) until the enmity gap between me and tank will be safe again.

That is correct. I find it a little strange that this is so hard to swallow even though it's been like this for ages.
Don't get me wrong though. We aren't alleviating the fact that your tank is clearly doing things wrong. His job is to dps as much as possible while making sure he doesn't cap your dps. If you have to stop DPSing or screw your rotation up because of enmity he's clearly performing under your standards.
Because FF14 is very generous with tank enmity it's a pretty good sign that your tank is doing something wrong (but not always, maybe he's poorly geared, or at a level where he doesn't have a tank stance yet... etc.).
It is, however, still your responsibility not to take aggro off of him. It's your enmity, and doing so has negative consequences on the group culminating with you potentially dying and your dps going to waste. But even if it doesn't get to that it's still unfavorable for the group.

This is also us building a case for role responsibilities and not necessarily how they play out. In practice if you're playing with a greedy dps tank who doesn't build enmity. If you pull aggro off of him a few times, the tank will often get the message that they're capping your dps and should build more aggro. The consequences for you and the rest of the group are generally manageable (though not always).
We're just saying that pulling aggro is always a mismanagement of enmity on the DPS end.

[Gravton]

Basically, if you queue as DPS into dungeon there are only 2 outcomes:
1. If you are good at your job = you are the bad one, because you don't care for tank's dps,
2. if you are bad at you job = everyone on reddit/OF complains about you and other DDs in DF doing low dps.

Lol well you still have one up on tanks and healers
1. If you use tank stance = you suck
2. If you don't use it = you suck
Or
1. If you dps = you suck
2. If you don't dps = you suck

[Sawamura]

I don´t really sure why people has trouble tank and dps enmity. I mean tank grab off enmity from dps/healer is really easy. For trash mob pull dps and tank is easy to change to target with lowest enmity.
As a tank should be happy with dps and healer can do the job.
As a DPS should be happy with a tank and healer can do the job.
As a healer should be happy with tank and dps can do the job.

However I really hope I can party with some good tank and dps whenever I do dungeon.... I have party with too many bad dps and tank and healer.....
If I see a really bad or beginner I usually tell them to read more guide at end of dungeon.

[EaMett]

this is just your personal opinion.

It's not my opinion. It's a well established responsibility distribution that's been inherent to role based mmos for over a decade now. Which was thoroughly backed up in this thread, with examples and counter examples. You (and others) strolling in saying it's "an opinion" without backing it up beyond saying "tanks have aggro building tools so it's their responsibility" does not make it so. No matter how easy it is for tanks to build aggro. You are still the ONLY (I can't stress this enough omg) person with control over YOUR enmity. If not having you there gets rid of the problem, YOU are the problem. If your tank sucks and you can't dps that's on him.
Someone earlier asked for an example of when it was actually the tank's fault and we're still waiting.

There are many flavors of mmos out there. I can't claim to having played them all but I've been around. Role responsibilities has been the one constant throughout. Some mmos make it hard on tanks to build proper enmity and DPS are always capped and stopping their dps to not grab aggro because doing so results in a swift death. When that's the case a good tank is one that could play with good dps and not cap them. Hell there are mmos where tanks don't even have enmity building skills so dps have to wait for buildup before starting. There are even mmos without raises so dps have to be extra careful.
It's always been the DPS' responsibility to keep their aggro in check and FF14 is no exception. The fact that tanks can make enmity rain, coupled with the fact that grabbing aggro is low consequence does NOT change these responsibilities. It merely allows you to be a sloppy player.

If you're in a raid with a slow building enmity tank there are several outcomes when you're about to grab aggro:
- You stop dpsing because you're out of enmity dumping skills. Your dps is bellow what it could be but you still manage to clear the boss before the enrage. You did YOUR job properly, made up for your high enmity (or the tank's low enmity) by stopping your dps and cleared the content. Success.
- You continue dpsing and grab aggro, boss cleaves the raid, or is missplaced for a mechanic etc.. it's a wipe. It's YOUR FAULT, if you had played your class properly you guys would have succeeded as per the above.
- You continue dpsing and grab aggro, boss kills you, screws up positionals for other players, etc. You hit enrage and wipe. It's YOUR FAULT, again if you had played properly you would've cleared.
- You stop DPSing, never grab aggro. The boss hits enrage and you wipe. It's the TANK'S FAULT. He's not generating enough enmity and is capping the group DPS which is keeping you from passing the enrage mechanic.
- And for full disclosure > You continue dpsing, grab aggro and the tank manages to pull back. In which case you may down the boss thanks to the cover provided by the tank and the healers (perhaps shielding and healing through a buster that required the provoke CD for example). They need to put that extra effort in because of YOU. They're covering YOUR mistake.

This applies to every encounter be it raid, boss, trash, etc... it's just that ff14 is very casual oriented and allows players to be sloppy, luring dps into thinking "well if the tank can't hold aggro he's not playing right so it's his fault". This is fallacious at best. Your enmity, your responsibility.

PS: And just to be clear. Tank in the wrong stance, tank AFKing mid pull, etc.. all douche moves from the tank but still your fault for grabbing aggro (though it may be warranted as your healer doesn't have infinite mana, but in that case you're putting the group survival first which is normal). You have 1 job as a dps. Doing as much damage as you can while not getting aggro. You have a built in enemy list and single target aggro list, use them.

[Sawamura]

If you're in a raid with a slow building enmity tank there are several outcomes when you're about to grab aggro:
- You stop dpsing because you're out of enmity dumping skills. Your dps is bellow what it could be but you still manage to clear the boss before the enrage. You did YOUR job properly, made up for your high enmity (or the tank's low enmity) by stopping your dps and cleared the content. Success.
- You continue dpsing and grab aggro, boss cleaves the raid, or is missplaced for a mechanic etc.. it's a wipe. It's YOUR FAULT, if you had played your class properly you guys would have succeeded as per the above.
- You continue dpsing and grab aggro, boss kills you, screws up positionals for other players, etc. You hit enrage and wipe. It's YOUR FAULT, again if you had played properly you would've cleared.
- You stop DPSing, never grab aggro. The boss hits enrage and you wipe. It's the TANK'S FAULT. He's not generating enough enmity and is capping the group DPS which is keeping you from passing the enrage mechanic.
- And for full disclosure > You continue dpsing, grab aggro and the tank manages to pull back. In which case you may down the boss thanks to the cover provided by the tank and the healers (perhaps shielding and healing through a buster that required the provoke CD for example). They need to put that extra effort in because of YOU. They're covering YOUR mistake.

If tank like this in savage raid is a wipe and disband GG...... This is tank MT and OT management enmity wrong..... There is just simple no way tank will lose enmity against DPS using correct reduce enmity ability in FFXIV world.Is good tank try to do the best with add more dps to help clear raid content. However if tank putting selfpersonal dps >> holding aggro for dps is complete tank fault in all of mmorpg... Tank job is holding mob as long as possible until all mob die. While dps doing the best dps and not over take aggro from tank.

[EaMett]

[...] However if tank putting selfpersonal dps >> holding aggro for dps is complete tank fault in all of mmorpg... Tank job is holding mob as long as possible until all mob die. While dps doing the best dps and not over take aggro from tank.

This is exactly what I'm saying.

But because I feel this was intended as a rebuttal: It's just that you're equating tank holding aggro with dps not pulling aggro. Which is incorrect.