Tanks Letting DPS Die

[EaMett]

That said, it's a very subjective situation. The DPS will allways consider it's the tank fault of not enough threat combo [...]

snip

Wow maybe I'm speaking Chinese. Lets give this another shot.
If your tank is in dps stance and capping your DPS because of emnity. OF COURSE he should switch to tank stance/rotation. OF COURSE he should put more effort into building aggro. All this goes without saying.
But if you grab aggro it's on you. There's nothing subjective about that. It's YOUR enmity, it's YOUR management or failure to do so. So yes if your tank is in dps stance building no aggro then you should "just stand there twiddling your fingers". There's -nothing- ludicrous about that. What is ludicrous in your example is that the tank would not switch to tank stance or enmity combo despite you telling him he's capping your dps.

And no there would not be a lot more vote kicks if mobs one shot you because there are a fair amount of mmos (and even some ff14 pulls) where grabbing agro -will- get you killed and you don't see that happening. Instead people actually wait for the tank to build some aggro. However, a tank who refuses to build more enmity when he can easily do so and despite capping his group's dps should (and would) get his ass handed to him.

Again, your aggro, your responsibility. The tank's responsibility is not to cap his group's dps. They're two separate things that work together. So yes, grabbing agro is always the DPS' fault even though it often stems from a poor tanking situation. Varying degrees of good intentions/selfishness from the tank are irrelevant, your responsibilities don't change.

[Llus]

Wow maybe I'm speaking Chinese. Lets give this another shot.
If your tank is in dps stance and capping your DPS because of emnity. OF COURSE he should switch to tank stance/rotation. OF COURSE he should put more effort into building aggro. All this goes without saying.
But if you grab aggro it's on you. There's nothing subjective about that. It's YOUR enmity, it's YOUR management or failure to do so. So yes if your tank is in dps stance building no aggro then you should "just stand there twiddling your fingers". There's -nothing- ludicrous about that. What is ludicrous in your example is that the tank would not switch to tank stance or enmity combo despite you telling him he's capping your dps.

And no there would not be a lot more vote kicks if mobs one shot you because there are a fair amount of mmos (and even some ff14 pulls) where grabbing agro -will- get you killed and you don't see that happening. Instead people actually wait for the tank to build some aggro. However, a tank who refuses to build more enmity when he can easily do so and despite capping his group's dps should (and would) get his ass handed to him.

Again, your aggro, your responsibility. The tank's responsibility is not to cap his group's dps. They're two separate things that work together. So yes, grabbing agro is always the DPS' fault even though it often stems from a poor tanking situation. Varying degrees of good intentions/selfishness from the tank are irrelevant, your responsibilities don't change.

This 100%. YOUR enmity, YOUR management. Let's give some examples to illustrate.

Tank pulls in DPS stance, 10 iLevels below everyone else. Everyone else pulls hate. EVERYONE ELSE PULLED HATE.... Who is responsible for pulling hate? EVERYONE ELSE. Who is responsible for making it impossible for you to DPS or Heal? THE TANK. The TANK SUCKED! But YOU PULLED HATE.

Tank pulls in Tank stance, immediately switches to DPS stance. iLevel equal. DPS doesn't use enmity mitigation, they pull hate. Who's fault? DPS that didn't use enmity reduction, their enmity, their fault. Tank really didn't do anything wrong in this situation. They COULD have stance danced to get hate back, they COULD have used an enmity combo to get hate back; but they didn't generate that hate for the DPS, the DPS did.

Tank pulls in Tank stance, immediately switches to DPS stance. iLevel equal. DPS uses enmity mitigation, they pull hate. Tank doesn't use enmity rotation to get hate back. Who's fault? DPS's fault, YOUR ENMITY, YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. Tank was being greedy AF and limited YOUR DPS because they were more concerned with THEIR DPS.

Tank pulls in Tank stance, stays in tank stance. Does only enmity combos. iLevel equal. Does 40% less damage than they could be doing, the run takes forever. DPS get tired of how long it's taking and pull ahead; they take hate Tank doesn't see it cause they're busy working out what comes after heavy swing or fast blade and wondering if they have enough tenacity to handle 1 more mob. Who's fault? DPS, they pulled hate. The TANK SUCKED! and you pulled hate.....

[Karshan]

Wow maybe I'm speaking Chinese. Lets give this another shot.
But if you grab aggro it's on you. There's nothing subjective about that. It's YOUR enmity, it's YOUR management or failure to do so. So yes if your tank is in dps stance building no aggro then you should "just stand there twiddling your fingers". There's -nothing- ludicrous about that.

Again, your aggro, your responsibility. The tank's responsibility is not to cap his group's dps. They're two separate things that work together. So yes, grabbing agro is always the DPS' fault even though it often stems from a poor tanking situation. Varying degrees of good intentions/selfishness from the tank are irrelevant, your responsibilities don't change.

I see what you mean. If I used everything else, as you said there's only not attacking that can prevent me from getting hate.

You say you see nothing ludicrous in that. There, I disagree. Not doing anything to focus on my secondary responsibility over my primary (damage) just because the tank fails at HIS primary role (hold hate to be the one getting hit) should not happen. So yes, ripping aggro is caused by my spells, hence my responsibility, AND the tank's failure to his (no failure = not happening).

I know it sounds a bit "git gud" here but it's not really my point. I'm not gonna be rude to such tanks, nor do I votekick ot trashtalk. Hell I won't either judge anything on small mistakes, it's just an inconvenience not a grave offense. But mostly, what I do now, is just going with tanks I know.
Or even sometimes I tank myself, to see the other side of the coin and so I DO know of situations where the DPS make no effort either whatsoever. But if I lose hate I go and get it back.

[Arrius]

Going to cover for the DPS here as a tank : The dps loss incured by applying another emnity combo is far outweighted by having the DPS and healer do damage without distraction.

Though I don't expect people use their Lucid Dreaming or Diversion, I do know my limits as a tank and roughly can determine how much I need to be in tank stance before I have gotten a sufficient lead in emnity to switch stance and to my other combos without risking losing the boss.

[EaMett]

[...] I understand what you're saying but the responsibility of the dps is to dps while using enmity tools. [...]

Correction : the responsibility of the dps is to dps while managing their enmity (aka: not grabbing aggro). Enmity tools are just one way they can do this. Other options include not dpsing, switching targets, handling a mechanic for another player etc.

[...] Not doing anything to focus on my secondary responsibility over my primary (damage) [...]

Why is one primary and the other secondary? They're equivalent and go hand in hand. Besides how do either of those supersede you staying alive? Emnity is 100% your responsibility. That's why you don't pull as a dps. That's why you don't HoT as a healer during big pulls (or do so conservatively) and don't overheal.

I think the sticking point for many people is that Aggro management is indeed a group effort. If one team member does poorly it impacts the other players. This, however, does not mean that your tank being shitty gives you a "get out of jail free" card for grabbing aggro. It's still your fault as frustrating as it may be.

[Wintersandman]

Correction : the responsibility of the dps is to dps while managing their enmity (aka: not grabbing aggro). Enmity tools are just one way they can do this. Other options include not dpsing, switching targets, handling a mechanic for another player etc.

Sorry but there is no correcting what I am saying. If the tank does his job properly. DPS should never have to stop dps'ing just to manage their threat. The job of the tank is to maintain control of whatever enemy is in front of him.

So here is a question for you. This morning in Halatali HM I saw a Tank who would let enemies go attack the healer as he never tagged them. Should I do one of the following:
A. Stay focus target on the tanks target
B. Attack loose target because the healer is dying

Based on your statements I should do A. Because if I choose B I am at fault for grabbing aggro.

[EaMett]

If the tank does his job properly. DPS should never have to stop dps'ing just to manage their threat.

We agree on this. The tank's job is to do as much dps while not capping the DPS. Still, a DPS taking aggro off a tank is the DPS' fault. After everything that's been said I don't know what more to add. If you want a pat on the back for taking aggro off your tank (regardless of how bad he is), you aren't getting it from me. That's quite clear.

Also this is completely unrelated to instances where a DPS should grab aggro. I'm only talking about enmity mismanagement.
There are plenty of instances where grabbing aggro is not a mismanagement of enmity. Whether it be a boss or mob that needs to be tanked by a dps, or mobs that need to be kited by dps, or if your tank dies. etc.. etc..

The example you give fits in that. You're -intentionally- taking aggro for a high priority reason (survival of group, which really trumps all else). As an aside, grabbing aggro isn't the only option. The healer or someone else could cc as well.
Anyways, I already addressed the healer edge case.

[Capn_Goggles]

[...] Still, a DPS taking aggro off a tank is the DPS' fault. [...]

That's painting a wide variety of possible situations with a very broad stroke, which is pretty silly since there's a few situations where it's totally out of their hands.

Anyway, as I've mentioned earlier, Monk and Samurai have lackluster enmity management, however I'm not particularly bothered by this because the DPS I lose for having to push harder on enmity is most likely made up by their high personal DPS; for the rest of my point, please consider this scenario to be the exception so I don't have to keep calling back to it as such.

A tank's primary objective is to establish enmity, which ensures the enemy targets them rather than the less defensive members of the party. Once enmity established, their objective shifts to maximizing their damage output while minimizing damage taken. If everyone uses their management tools, the tank will rarely have to (if ever) go back into tank stance in order to maintain aggro after it has been established. The problem comes when party members refuse to use these abilities, either because they're ignorant of how important it is to do so or because they do not believe the responsibility falls on their shoulders. Ultimately, if the tank loses aggro they're responsible for getting it back, however unless they did a particularly poor job of establishing enmity (which can be as simple as 2 overpowers and popping equilibrium before swapping to DPS stance as warrior) then the fault lies solely on the person who ripped it in the first place.

Please be aware that I do not endorse a petty idea like "you aggro it, you tank it", because people make mistakes; and let's be real, most content isn't hard enough to justify that level of punishment. However, I also dislike the idea that a role isn't responsible for anything but their namesake, because if this were the case then nearly every job would look radically different from their current iterations.

[Llus]

That's painting a wide variety of possible situations with a very broad stroke, which is pretty silly since there's a few situations where it's totally out of their hands.

Name one please

[Wintersandman]

Again, your aggro, your responsibility.

You're not speaking chinese. I understand what you're saying but the responsibility of the dps is to dps while using enmity tools. If these are done properly than it is the tanks fault for not following their responsibility. The DPS is not at fault for using their tools and doing their job properly. That responsibility falls solely on the tank. Enmity generation isn't hard in this game.