Tanks Letting DPS Die

[Yneko]

If I get it right, I, as a monk for example, have aggro tools in form of ONE 120s cooldown that halves the enmity I generate and usually isn't up for every trash pull and I definitely have to make sure it's ready for opener on boss. Tank has aggro tools in form of a GCD combo and other GCDs/oGCDs (based on job) including 2 provokes plus tank stance that has additional enmity modifier. Therefore, based on the quantity and quality of both jobs' aggro tools, it is my (monk's) responsibility to not pull hate from enemies.

Also, if I did use my ONE 120s (!!!) aggro reducing cooldown and went full ham on boss, it is still my fault if I did more dmg than tank was expecting and I was supposed to hold back using any skills (and loose/waste any buffs I have) until the enmity gap between me and tank will be safe again. And if the tank decided to use enmity combo I should also say I'm sorry he had to and promise it will never happen again.

Basically, if you queue as DPS into dungeon there are only 2 outcomes:
1. If you are good at your job = you are the bad one, because you don't care for tank's dps,
2. if you are bad at you job = everyone on reddit/OF complains about you and other DDs in DF doing low dps.

Good. Makes sense.

[Venoshock]

If I get it right, I, as a monk for example, have aggro tools in form of ONE 120s cooldown that halves the enmity I generate and usually isn't up for every trash pull and I definitely have to make sure it's ready for opener on boss. Tank has aggro tools in form of a GCD combo and other GCDs/oGCDs (based on job) including 2 provokes plus tank stance that has additional enmity modifier. Therefore, based on the quantity and quality of both jobs' aggro tools, it is my (monk's) responsibility to not pull hate from enemies.

Also, if I did use my ONE 120s (!!!) aggro reducing cooldown and went full ham on boss, it is still my fault if I did more dmg than tank was expecting and I was supposed to hold back using any skills (and loose/waste any buffs I have) until the enmity gap between me and tank will be safe again. And if the tank decided to use enmity combo I should also say I'm sorry he had to and promise it will never happen again.

Basically, if you queue as DPS into dungeon there are only 2 outcomes:
1. If you are good at your job = you are the bad one, because you don't care for tank's dps,
2. if you are bad at you job = everyone on reddit/OF complains about you and other DDs in DF doing low dps.

Good. Makes sense.

Um no, nobody is saying that. Like at all lol. You've used diversion. You did your job. Just don't do stupid crap like single target on AOE pulls and pull for the tank.

this is just your personal opinion. the tanks enmity skills are designed the way that they should (easily) hold the aggro no matter what kind of magic trick any dd is supposed to present. if tanks lose enmity its their fucking fault cause they miscalculated their amount. the dds just did their job: DPS – in this case most probably "good" dps.

if a tank lose enmity its his personal fault of what ever reasons and there are straight more than just one, oversaw a mob? wrong stance? wrong combo? wrong target? - anything but not the dds fault. what kind of world we would life in if dds have to hold themselves back just for the fact that tanks can say "Im used to play aggressively" - cmn even a one-eyed pirate would see, thats wrong. so no you have to get over it.


its the tanks responsibility. end of story.

Lmao, it goes both ways. DPS have abilities to lower aggro generation/cut a % of it off. They should be using those and if they don't and rip aggro off the tank, they are to blame.

'bu-bu-but tank has abilities to build aggro like powerslash1!!', Sure, they do. But 'yeah, lets not use our enimity control abilities and purposefully lower the tanks DPS because we can't be bothered to use an oGCD role ability which doesn't cost us any dps but completely screws the tanks dps hard, because fuck them!'

I get it, you're probably one of those dps that ironically doesn't care about overall party dps, but just use your damn utility, it's one button lmao. You're a bad dps if you don't, in the same way a tank is bad if they don't use their CDs and still loses aggro to a DPS that uses thier aggro dumping abilities.

[Frizze]

Um no, nobody is saying that. Like at all lol. You've used diversion. You did your job. Just don't do stupid crap like single target on AOE pulls and pull for the tank.

That is essentially what EaMett has been arguing for like five pages. If the DPS takes hate for any reason theyre bad. The tank might also be bad. Diversion/Lucid isnt enough, you have to stop attacking too if the tank did a bad job building an enmity lead(or didnt care to in the first place). I fully agree that a DPS should use all their tools, no argument at all from me. I hated leveling archer to get quelling strikes back when that was a thing, but i did it because i knew how important it was. But "stop attacking mid-fight" isnt a tool, its a waste of everyones time. I wouldnt single out one random enemy from a pack of 10 to kill when i could aoe them all, so why would i stop attacking mid-fight so you can re-build a lead? Ill walk the enemy back to you if it left the pack, ill tank it myself, whatever. But im not going to stop. Hell, ive tanked whole dungeons when an under-geared tank couldnt keep hate off me/the healer, so it wouldnt even be the first time.

[EaMett]

If I get it right, I, as a monk for example, have aggro tools in form of ONE 120s cooldown that halves the enmity I generate and usually isn't up for every trash pull and I definitely have to make sure it's ready for opener on boss. Tank has aggro tools in form of a GCD combo and other GCDs/oGCDs (based on job) including 2 provokes plus tank stance that has additional enmity modifier. Therefore, based on the quantity and quality of both jobs' aggro tools, it is my (monk's) responsibility to not pull hate from enemies.

Also, if I did use my ONE 120s (!!!) aggro reducing cooldown and went full ham on boss, it is still my fault if I did more dmg than tank was expecting and I was supposed to hold back using any skills (and loose/waste any buffs I have) until the enmity gap between me and tank will be safe again.

That is correct. I find it a little strange that this is so hard to swallow even though it's been like this for ages.
Don't get me wrong though. We aren't alleviating the fact that your tank is clearly doing things wrong. His job is to dps as much as possible while making sure he doesn't cap your dps. If you have to stop DPSing or screw your rotation up because of enmity he's clearly performing under your standards.
Because FF14 is very generous with tank enmity it's a pretty good sign that your tank is doing something wrong (but not always, maybe he's poorly geared, or at a level where he doesn't have a tank stance yet... etc.).
It is, however, still your responsibility not to take aggro off of him. It's your enmity, and doing so has negative consequences on the group culminating with you potentially dying and your dps going to waste. But even if it doesn't get to that it's still unfavorable for the group.

This is also us building a case for role responsibilities and not necessarily how they play out. In practice if you're playing with a greedy dps tank who doesn't build enmity. If you pull aggro off of him a few times, the tank will often get the message that they're capping your dps and should build more aggro. The consequences for you and the rest of the group are generally manageable (though not always).
We're just saying that pulling aggro is always a mismanagement of enmity on the DPS end.

[Gravton]

Basically, if you queue as DPS into dungeon there are only 2 outcomes:
1. If you are good at your job = you are the bad one, because you don't care for tank's dps,
2. if you are bad at you job = everyone on reddit/OF complains about you and other DDs in DF doing low dps.

Lol well you still have one up on tanks and healers
1. If you use tank stance = you suck
2. If you don't use it = you suck
Or
1. If you dps = you suck
2. If you don't dps = you suck