4.05 - Tank DPS comparison

[Quor]

Ok, since I can't seem to fall asleep tonight, let me more fully address the "expanded sample size" criticism put forth by Sizzle. I'll compare two combo's; the first will be purely DA+SE, with a DA used every other SE (to make it MP neutral when SS is factored in) and the second will be SE+BS, utilizing TBN on cooldown, and DA, if necessary, when TBN is not up to ensure a similar amount of MP is used in both combo's. I'll use a GCD of 2.5 (for the sake of making this nice rounded numbers, I know the real GCD at 70 is going to be closer to 2.3, and even less with BW up, but I'm not even going to touch BW here), and list the total potency each step adds to the combo. I'll add "natural" BS in as appropriate, acting under the assumption that they will be used as soon as they are available.

0 - HS (150p)
2.5 - SS (400p)
5 - DA+SE (840p, 10 blood)
7.5 - HS (990p)
10 - SS (1240p)
12.5 - SE (1540p, 20 blood)
15 - HS (1690p)
17.5 - SS (1940p)
20 - DA+SE (2380p, 30 blood)
22.5 - HS (2530p)
25 - SS (2780p)
27.5 - SE (3080p, 40 blood)
30 - HS (3230p)
32.5 - SS (3480p)
35 - DA+SE (3920p, 50 blood)
37.5 - BS (4320p)
40 - HS (4470p)
42.5 - SS (4720p)
45 - SE (5020p, 10 blood)

At this point, you can start over from the beginning, gaining another 5020 potency over the course of it, with an extra 10 blood at the end. After the 5th rotation, you would have an additional BS to use for another 400 potency, so assuming 5 of these 45 second rotations with the extra BS tacked on the end (for a total of 96 GCD's) we get 25,500 potency net, with 6 total BS, all of them natural. Now, for the TBN version:

0 - HS+TBN (150p)
2.5 - SS, TBN breaks (400p, 50 blood)
5 - SE (700p, 60 blood)
7.5 - BS (1100p, 10 blood)
10 - HS (1250p)
12.5 - SS (1500p)
15s - SE+TBN (1800p, 70 blood)
17.5 - BS (2200p, 20 blood)
20s - HS (2350p)
22.5 - SS (2600p)
25 - SE (2900p, 30 blood)
27.5 - HS (3050p)
30 - SS+TBN (3300p, 80 blood)
32.5 - SE (3600p, 90 blood)
35 - BS (4000p, 40 blood)
37.5 - HS (4150p)
40 - SS (4400p)
42.5 - SE (4700p, 50 blood)

At this point we have an interesting choice. Do we Hard Slash > Syphon Strike > TBN and then drop two Bloodspillers? Or do we BS right now, then wait a moment before BSing again? We'll assume an instant use of BS, as well as saving TBN until we have fully refreshed MP via the upcoming SS.

45 - BS (5100p, 0 blood)
47.5 - HS (5250p)
50 - SS (5500p)
52.5 - SE+TBN (5800p, 60 blood)
57.5 - BS (6200p, 10 blood)

Now, it doesn't look like the TBN+BS rotation will it as nicely into a 45s chunk as the DA+SE rotation will, so it's a bit tougher to extrapolate beyond this. We know that 5 rotations of the DA+SE combo plus the extra GCD at the end for the 6th BS is 227.5 seconds. This combo certainly does not fit neatly into that 227.5s window. The nearest approximation is 3.9 iterations of this combo in the same time frame, with a stupid amount of decimals after the 9. But for the sake of seeing what happens, let's just hand wave it and see what we see. Rounding up to 4 full rotations in the span of 227.5s, we get 24,800 potency, which is 700 less than the first combo would have done, or the difference of one non-DA Souleater combo.

But looking at the GCD-by-GCD breakdown, the TBN combo has some pretty distinct breakpoints where it's clearly superior to the DA+SE combo. Likewise, there are similar breakpoints where the DA+SE combo wins out over the TBN combo. For example, if you only have 4 GCD's of uptime on a target, the TBN+BS combo clearly wins out. But if your uptime increases to 6 GCD's, then it's better to sit on the BS and do a DA+SE and a normal SE combo instead (or, more realistically, a pair of DA+SE combo's).

Based on this, it's looking like there's no hard or fast rule on TBN usage. As long as your gauge is under 50 (i.e. you do not lose any blood when TBN pops) then you're safe to put TBN on someone in the event that you need a smaller amount of higher potency attacks. Any time you will be on a target for between 6 and 9 GCd's, it seems that sticking to a standard SE combo is the better plan. Anything less than 6, but more than 12, you'll want to try and utilize TBN for it's blood gain if possible. But if you're able to keep on the target for more than 15 or 16 GCd's, the DA+SE combo again is the better choice.

I actually really like this. It seems like there's a lot of decision making as to whether or not you can use one of your defensive cooldowns to gain an offensive bonus. It's not entirely one way or the other. Sometimes it's a DPS gain, sometimes it's a DPS loss, and you just have to be able to recognize the context so you can make the best decision on how to spend your resources. Kind of like WAR was back when Vengeance and RI granted stacks. I miss that kind of "aggressive" defensive cooldown usage.

I still think it's wrong to say TBN is "always" a loss when used as an offensive CD outside of Grit, but I do see that there is a great dual of nuance in how and when to utilize TBN and BS depending on the way the fight is going. You've gotta make a lot of on-the-fly decisions if you want to maximize your GCD and skill usage. I think it would be more accurate to say that TBN is a highly conditional cooldown that can be a strong DPS enabler in the right conditions, but isn't like other DPS cooldowns in that you don't always want to try and use it as often as possible.

/book

[Shinkyo]

Snip

Now the conversation in going into a better direction. Thumbs up for that.
I will definitely agree with you that there are conditions that make TBN+BS valuable, i.e. any damage buff to the player or debuff to the target to maximize potency within those window.
Same as you need long remaining duration to make use of the extra 2400 MP (1 DA) you trade for every 6 use of TBN+BS, which is at minimum 90 sec which is very long time for a little benefit.

In practical fight, I'll agree that you'll benefit more from TBN+BS because of raid damage buffs if you're consistent at breaking shields.
Also, it's just more fun to use TBN+BS otherwise the DRK is just 2.0 PLD simple...