4.05 - Tank DPS comparison

[Kabooa]

Please explain.

That's how OGCDs work. They don't force you to make a decision during weighted GCDs. They're balanced primarily by their Cooldowns, sometimes by cost (Such as Aetherflow, the Tank Gauges), and so on.

Bloodspiller will not be an OGCD, 50 gauage, 400/540 - 475/650 potency ability. If we go by the generation of blood being its sole cost, it's going to be significantly weaker. Using the 15 seconds of TBN combined with Soulstealer spam at Base Skill Speed, you're looking at 70 Blood every 15 seconds. This means you get one Bloodspiller approximately every 12 seconds.

A comparable OGCD is the execution shot Archers gain, Misery's end, which is 190 on a 12 second cooldown, with a 20% health requirement. Given that Dark Knight is a tank and not a DPS, with a static +20% damage buff and without the 'execute' prerequisite you're looking at Bloodspiller being closer to 140-150. It may or may not have a Dark Art's cost in this iteration, but the baseline power is going to be significantly lower. It would be allowed to be higher if it had a significant cooldown by comparison.

[Falar]

That's how OGCDs work. They don't force you to make a decision during weighted GCDs. They're balanced primarily by their Cooldowns, sometimes by cost (Such as Aetherflow, the Tank Gauges), and so on.

Bloodspiller will not be an OGCD, 50 gauage, 400/540 - 475/650 potency ability. If we go by the generation of blood being its sole cost, it's going to be significantly weaker. Using the 15 seconds of TBN combined with Soulstealer spam at Base Skill Speed, you're looking at 70 Blood every 15 seconds. This means you get one Bloodspiller approximately every 12 seconds.

A comparable OGCD is the execution shot Archers gain, Misery's end, which is 190 on a 12 second cooldown, with a 20% health requirement.Given that Dark Knight is a tank and not a DPS, with a static +20% damage buff and without the 'execute' prerequisite you're looking at Bloodspiller being closer to 140-150. It may or may not have a Dark Art's cost in this iteration, but the baseline power is going to be significantly lower. It would be allowed to be higher if it had a significant cooldown by comparison.

Ahh, so you're assuming if we want to make it better by taking it oGCD, they would nerf its potency.

We're arguing for removing it from the GCD as an improvement.

Being on the GCD its potency numbers make it look tough, but the opportunity cost of MP and Blackblood gain take away from that "shine" a bit. Therefore, it needs to be oGCD. No one is advocating for a simultaneous nerf.

Due to costing 50 Blackblood, the cooldown is more than adequate. As you said, the cost would be the balance to its use.

[Kabooa]

Ahh, so you're assuming if we want to make it better by taking it oGCD, they would nerf its potency.

We're arguing for removing it from the GCD as an improvement.

Being on the GCD its potency numbers make it look tough, but the opportunity cost of MP and Blackblood gain take away from that "shine" a bit. Therefore, it needs to be oGCD. No one is advocating for a simultaneous nerf.

Due to costing 50 Blackblood, the cooldown is more than adequate.

Except it doesn't have a cooldown. It has a cost. The building of the gauge may act as a pseudo cooldown, but -not- using bloodspiller doesn't lose uses, unless you're already at 100 gauage / shoot over.

Not even in a Summoner's best day, who has the literal highest OGCDs in the game, would it come close to what an OGCD, 'as is' Bloodspiller would do. (Edit: I suppose technically that goes to Samurai's Gurren, but !@#% them, amirite?)

No, it going off the GCD necessitates it being weaker. You don't get to have it both ways, else the warriors are going to come in for a word mate.

[shao32]

Are ppl arguing our atctive mitigation with a Blood reward aka a extra bloodspiller need to become a dps esential part of the rotation and the mitigation being the bonus or its just me? Really people really

[Claire_Pendragon]

50 blood = 400 potency if you use Bloodspiller, that is to say, the very thing he claimed to be a DPS loss. You can't advocate not using BloodSpiller to faster accumulate gauge...for your next Bloodspiller.

The closest thing I can give as a counter argument, to help get the idea, is to swap out the terms GCD, bloodspiller, and blood gauge, for something else.

You need to eat food.
You need to earn cash per day to get the food.
But if you eat food, you must not work for the cash that day.

Yes you earn the cash solely to eat the food, but eating the food is also a day lost that could have been used to earn more money. (yes, which is used to buy food, and eat it.)

There are a few things taken out of the equation, solely to focus on the idea that a day is lost not earning money.

[Falar]

Except it doesn't have a cooldown. It has a cost. The building of the gauge may act as a pseudo cooldown, but -not- using bloodspiller doesn't lose uses, unless you're already at 100 gauage / shoot over.

Not even in a Summoner's best day, who has the literal highest OGCDs in the game, would it come close to what an OGCD, 'as is' Bloodspiller would do. (Edit: I suppose technically that goes to Samurai's Gurren, but !@#% them, amirite?)

No, it going off the GCD necessitates it being weaker. You don't get to have it both ways, else the warriors are going to come in for a word mate.

We're talking about what, 4 extra GCDs per minute?

I highly doubt that change would suddenly make us the go-to tank and get WAR tears flowing. It just sucks that being on the GCD we must weight it against our resource generating attacks so it is far weaker than it may appear to a casual observer. I'd like there to be no tradeoffs to using our strongest ST attack, like when it was CnS.

[Quor]

Bloodspiller oGCD

Oh, we understand you want to remove it from the GCd as an improvement to the skill. What Kabooa is saying is that, if that happened, it would require Bloodspiller to be nerfed significantly. Due to the nature of oGCD abilities, if they have a low/no cooldown, they either have a cost that conflicts with other uses in some way (Shinten, Kaiten and Kyuten), have explicit or implicit cooldowns (Guren, Geirskogul, CnS), require certain outside requirements be met (Misery's End, Assassinate) or are a combination of the three (Upheaval, Guren). This provides limiting power on the skill. What you are advocating is to essentially turn Bloodspiller into Shinten. However, there is nothing else meaningful that conflicts with the use of BS, whereas Shinten, while it is SAM's major Kenki dump, the entirety of the SAM rotation revolves around maintaining enough Kenki to utilize Kaiten as needed and Guren when it's off CD. This forces some thought into the use of Shinten, where a good SAM needs to plan Kenki use so to ensure they will have enough Kenki to Guren when it's off CD, or to Kaiten when they need to Midare or refresh Banana.

BS has no such decision making. It's literally a matter of "oh, you have 50 blood? Here's 400+ potency." There's no decision to be made if it's oGCD. You would hit that button with the fist of an angry god pretty much as soon as it would be ready. There's no cost to it like a WAR would have with Upheaval (which also possesses a cooldown) or a SAM would with an ill-timed Guren. Thus, if you're going to take BS off the GCD then you would have to nerf it. Hard.

And as I stated in my previous post, DA+Bloodspiller might be a "loss" in potency over an SE combo now, but that's only under a very specific, functionally impossible premise. It's true in what amounts to a laboratory environment, but as far as real world application goes, it's like all other theorycraft; fun to read, but ultimately not a solid reflection of reality. The reality is that Bloodspiller is at least as powerful/useful as Fell Cleave is on a per-GCD basis, give or take. It has about the same "cost" in terms of build-up and GCD, and whether or not using TBN to get more blood is a good thing will depend on situation at hand, not on the supposedly set-in-stone numbers of an ideal rotation maintained under unrealistic conditions.

[Reynhart]

You need to eat food.
You need to earn cash per day to get the food.
But if you eat food, you must not work for the cash that day.

But in your example, the goal is not to earn money, it's to eat food. "Eating food" is doing damage, and "earning cash" is gaining blood.
And the claim is that, by not eating food, you'll gain more cash that will let you eat food.

[SyzzleSpark]

4.0 - WAHHH, DRK is a 1-2-3 job, 2.x PLD all over again!
4.05 - Hey, take Bloodspiller off the GCD.

[ExLegen]

Bloodspiller doesnt need to be off gcd.

Why TBN into BS should be a dps gain over a DA? there is no reason for such a thing. If anything i dont want it to be a dps gain, i want its duration increased and the 20% shield applied to party members. Right now everyone thinks about of how to use TBN to get more dps, its a sinergy, its a mitigation tool that rewards smart use with dps, but its a mitigation tool.

I would like to see bloodprice being usefull, as in adding some mitigation to it, so we can mitigate fluf dmg, and actually give DRK an option on delirium use.

Living dead and sole survivor are skills that i really dont understand. I use Sole survivor on trash because... why not... but its completely forgetable. About living dead... sigh. Both skills needs tweaking.

Also i dont know if i would like a scourge combo, but about the people talking about how its not going to happen because it doenst fit SB potencies calculations... well my friends, if Square keeps balacing DRK as they are so far into SB, i think in 2 months we will have a 500 potency soul eater.