SAM out classing all other DPS

[Exiled_Tonberry]

...

Monk, Ninja and DRG can all LOSE their resources. Their main means of DPS, simply because the boss decided to jump away or the mechanic dictates that you leave the boss for a certain amount of time.
Now, these 3 melee can attempt to upkeep their buffs with various abilities, but it does require a decent amount of player skill to do so.

SAM? Boss leaves? So what, Sen and Kenki is there to stay. They're simply not punished at all by boss mechanics. Their rotation is very simple too, and requires no double weaving of any kind. The most complex thing SAM has is Kenki skill usage, which does take time to get used to I'll admit.
Overall, I really do feel DRG or even MCH is a harder job to play than SAM. Which kinda debunks the whole "this job is so strong because it's difficult" comment.

[silentwindfr]

Try SMN/MCH/BLM. You'll have so much fun if you think SAM is punishing/hard to min/max

get a normal dps with sam is simple, get the best dps is far more complicate than it seems, i have never said it was the hardest, simply that the class was not that braindead that some people want to make it look like.

and... please blm? mch yes, smn.... hmm maybe... (even if it was too much simplified)

try sam 70 and you will understand. it far more demanding than simply follows blindly a cycle.

Monk, Ninja and DRG can all LOSE their resources. Their main means of DPS, simply because the boss decided to jump away or the mechanic dictates that you leave the boss for a certain amount of time.
Now, these 3 melee can attempt to upkeep their buffs with various abilities, but it does require a decent amount of player skill to do so.

SAM? Boss leaves? So what, Sen and Kenki is there to stay. They're simply not punished at all by boss mechanics. Their rotation is very simple too, and requires no double weaving of any kind. The most complex thing SAM has is Kenki skill usage, which does take time to get used to I'll admit.
Overall, I really do feel DRG or even MCH is a harder job to play than SAM. Which kinda debunks the whole "this job is so strong because it's difficult" comment.

boss leave, you loose time and for the sam it can be complicate too loose time, yes the ressource don't leave the but the time ticks. 5-10 second away, means certain cd that will not be aligned and will make you loose dps. an example simple, higanbana, the boss leave when you are stuck at 2 sen, but come back higanbana fall because it was away too long, you need to build up the third send and use midare or use hagakure (if is up) and depending of the time he was away you can have loose some buff, yes the buff is 30 second, but our cycle is big, 3 combo at use for get the three sen. means 8 skill to do before have the 3 sen...

don't respect a position, you will loose 5 kenki on gekko and kasha, leading you to a shortage of kenki at the wrong time, loosing time on Guren or not having kaiten for higanbana and midare.

yes we don't loose ressource like other, but loose time for the sam can be more impacting than you can imagine....

i know well the subject of the monk, i'm the first to regret the way greese lightning work. but honestly with stormblood the gameplay of the monk have become extremely simple. a lot of way to keep GL now and it duration is kinda long... but i admit it have really heavy downside
for the dragoon i feel for them, i don't understand why they don't have a dps stronger than the ranged, for me is not normal. like mch that have less damage than bard while the bard offer more utility and boost... but that not the subject...

here people complain about a jobs purely egoist, that have only one goal, deal dps... nothing more nothing less. the trouble is more they have changed the monk for give it.... utility? *shrugs* when it was not needed... they was only needing to make them like sam... an egoist dps. we will have choice, that what is important, the choice... sadly people are slave to meta from the HC, when a lot of them don't even have the skill for use this meta. this game allows you to complet everything with every type of team.

yes the sam is actually the only pure dps egoist that have almost a spot assured, but not everyone want sam in them team... i see a lot of team that simply don't want samurai... more than team that want one.

[HoLoFoNo]

Snip

While I do agree with your comment, balancing around difficulty isn't wise anyway, unless said difficulty variation is minor. I do think however that classes should be balanced on how well they interact with mechanics in fights. Obviously there are different fights for different classes (remember SMN and A2S?) but it should be balanced in a generalizing way.

For example: BRD, RDM and MCH interact very well with fights (or rather, they don't have to). SAM and NIN interact fairly well. MNK interacts moderately (It's hit or miss, but nowhere as bad as it used to be). DRG and SMN interacts fairly poorly (punished too hard for dropping resources, something as simple as a boss's LB can mess you up) and BLM interacts very poorly (Leylines and Aetherial manipulation still stops you from doing damage and is quite situational, fights are getting more and more mechanically challenging requiring more movement and therefore more optimization from BLMS)

Now I don't want to get into the argument of 'is mechanically frustrating count as difficult?' because that's another rabbit hole but in a vacuum none of these classes are hard (naturally, but some are still harder than others just the basic rotation) but if they were to make a class that required you to input street fighter commands to get extra damage out of GCDs or hit your buttons in time with the animations to get the combo bonus and then made it overpowered as balls, all it would cause is the people who are shit to complain that they can't get top deeps ez mode and they would have to make it quite ridiculously overpowered to make it balanced with difficulty, which would cause total polarization between statics based on whether they have this example class or not.

[Nominous]

That's because the whole design idea of selfish DPS is flawed.

If 'selfish dps' is high enough that 'synergy dps' is less, then the synergy DPS is just a liability because it has more moving parts and is less resilient and makes it completely pointless.

From what I hear, SAM is actually a pretty good recoverer for melee dps.

Yes. The idea of a 'selfish DPS' is flawed. It's the most perfect of imperfect solutions, however. What was the alternative? A raidwide crit buff? We have those. Raidwide damage buff? Got em' in every shape and form, don't need more homogenization there either. If you want every new Job to boil down to people wanting them for their own "TA" or "Balance" you want a really boring game. That being said, it's no one here's fault that they're seemingly running out of ideas for 'synergy' and 'utility', so no reason to debate the design of SAM being flawed.

Speaking of utility and synergy, though... It is absolutely the right idea for them to be lower than a Job with less. It's a balancing board. The more of one thing you have, the less of the other you should have, by nature. So, while you aren't entirely wrong about why certain Jobs are more alluring, and there are certainly other moving parts... The real reason people want NIN/RDM is because there's no downside to bringing them, and they have the most of everything, without sacrificing much of anything. Total contribution to the party dwarfs all, and they have the highest without a doubt.

The above being considered, it is actually more of a liability to bring a 'selfish' DPS than any other Job. Alternative means of supporting your party means that even with Weakness, or Brink of Death, even if you mess up mechanics, or have low mastery over your Job, you're bringing a static value that will improve the raid. A selfish DPS has everything to lose. A DPS with synergy/utility has static support values that never diminish.

And finally... SAM is no more easier or difficult to recover from mechanics than any other Job. It just loses damage in ways that people don't understand unless they study the Job. It'd be great if people could stop and just read a little into their mechanics. All people see is Kenki/Sen never deteriorating and assume, "Well, that's just like my Enochian/BoTD/GL, but their's never goes away!" It's not conceptually the same as any of those mechanics, nor is it how the damage is lost on SAM. 5 missed positionals, for example, result in the effective loss of 300 potency. Similar losses occur on the other melee for those mistakes, just in a different way.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Monk, Ninja and DRG can all LOSE their resources.

SAM/NIN/MCH/BRD/PLD/WAR/DRK/SCH/SMN/RDM/WHM/AST don't lose any resources at all when a boss decides to jump. If you want to call Huton, a buff on NIN, a resource, than SAM is doubly punished because they have no way of efficiently putting up Jinpu and Shifu. And guess what? All jobs lose buffs when a boss jump. The only job that loses resources on boss jumps is DRG. MNK loses a buff they can slap back on themselves in five seconds.

[Critical-Limit]

MNK loses a buff they can slap back on themselves in five seconds.

Didn't know you could get GL3 in 5 seconds do you mean if you just "happen" to have perfect balance up? That move with a really long cool down?

[MomoOG]

MNK loses a buff they can slap back on themselves in five seconds.

Uh what????

[Tsilyi]

I mean, if we want to get technical... supposing slashing isn't up (which I know is an outlier considering war/nin exist and both I believe apply it quicker than sam does in their normal priority) after a jump phase, monk takes 9 gcds to have full GL and sam takes 8 gcds to have all theirs applied. on top of that, if both PB and Meikyo are available, monk will have theirs faster because sam does not use meikyo to get buffs, but rather to burst (in general). I'm not arguing for either side as I honestly feel I enjoy playing any job, but the difference in time from zero to full buffs is not very different between the two.

[Leonus]

I mean, if we want to get technical... supposing slashing isn't up (which I know is an outlier considering war/nin exist and both I believe apply it quicker than sam does in their normal priority) after a jump phase, monk takes 9 gcds to have full GL and sam takes 8 gcds to have all theirs applied. on top of that, if both PB and Meikyo are available, monk will have theirs faster because sam does not use meikyo to get buffs, but rather to burst (in general). I'm not arguing for either side as I honestly feel I enjoy playing any job, but the difference in time from zero to full buffs is not very different between the two.

Almost 9 GCDs if we consider also applying the dot.

Mnk applies everything and gets GL3 in 9 GCDs to include dots..

[Tsilyi]

sure, but I'm talking purely about buffs. whether or not demo/higan is a thing doesn't matter in this example. but sure, if you want to include higan it IS 9 gcds.

edit: jesus i didn't realize how creepy my character looks on the forums til just now.