Boycotting Warrior 4.0 (Let's do it!)

[Reynhart]

Nerfing our DPS will just anger the majority of the players, chase some away from tanking completely, and lower the skill ceiling. In other words, it caters to the "bads".

No, it won't. "Bad" players don't do "low DPS", they do "less DPS than what the optimal rotation can offer"
If you reduce tank damage by 30%, you'll still end with people doing twice the damage than others. These numbers will just become the new reference.

[Campi]

No, it won't. "Bad" players don't do "low DPS", they do "less DPS than what the optimal rotation can offer"
If you reduce tank damage by 30%, you'll still end with people doing twice the damage than others. These numbers will just become the new reference.

Nope.
Bad Players do Low DPS
That's a fact

[Reynhart]

Non standard composition is not something you'd even remotely consider when you're progressing in a content.

Maybe you'd think that it's irrelevant because it was "easy" content, but when we reached T5, T8 and T9 with my static, we went solo tank right from the start. We even tried T6 that way...not very successfully

Considering that tanks will soon receive several skills to mitigate damage on party members, maybe we could have a DPS "tanking" a big add for a little time while the five DPS burn it to the ground.

You're right that the Devs are trying their best to avoid that, but by doing so, they effectively corner their tanks into playing the same, making the imbalance obvious.

Stance dancing is necessary for optimal results, but you need to remember that optimal results are also out of reach for the majority of the playerbase.

It's still irrelevant. There is still only one optimal way, and that could discourage players. It's like saying "It's not a big deal if there is only one BiS set, most people won't ever have it". If you want the BiS, you still have only one way to obtain it.

You're right, I didn't even try to clear A12S. Why ?
Because I don't like the actual tank meta. So, even if I put the effort in learning the fight to do it "optimally", it wouldn't be fun for me (In fact, it wasn't even fun to do A9S and A10S because I had to go WAR despite not particularly liking the job...).
If I knew there was a way to clear it as effectively with an usual setup, I might have tried it with my static.

[aleph_null]

Maybe you'd think that it's irrelevant because it was "easy" content, but when we reached T5, T8 and T9 with my static, we went solo tank right from the start. We even tried T6 that way...not very successfully

Admittedly I started playing near 3.1 so I never experienced raiding in coil. But do you mind if I ask why you'd consider going solo tank from the start, since you never knew if they'd put some mechanics that require two tanks? I'm currently discussing group composition for my static in 4.0 and we won't even consider going solo tank or solo heal for that very reason: we don't know what's in there.

It's still irrelevant. There is still only one optimal way, and that could discourage players. It's like saying "It's not a big deal if there is only one BiS set, most people won't ever have it". If you want the BiS, you still have only one way to obtain it.

You're right, I didn't even try to clear A12S. Why ?
Because I don't like the actual tank meta. So, even if I put the effort in learning the fight to do it "optimally", it wouldn't be fun for me (In fact, it wasn't even fun to do A9S and A10S because I had to go WAR despite not particularly liking the job...).
If I knew there was a way to clear it as effectively with an usual setup, I might have tried it with my static.

Yeah I can understand your point of view since the most optimal way to play isn't to your liking. However you need to remember that most of the raiders in this game won't even get to play at that level. Let's say we assume there's a super tanky job that allows solo tank composition, then it'll either be the one optimal composition or not. If it's optimal to bring one tank then the speedkill meta will shift to that, leaving any other tank behind (assuming they can't solo tank no matter how defensive they play, unlike this tank job). It's pretty much impossible to perfectly balance every composition to be optimal. There will always be a best composition for any given fight, and that best composition is probably irrelevant for like 99% of the raiders in this game. It won't really solve the problem, it'll just shift it to a new problem. If the new super tanky job isn't better than bringing two tanks doing tank swaps and playing offensively, then that job will be left behind. If you're talking about viability, yes I agree every job should perform decently enough to not hinder their group while progressing. But if you're talking about optimality (for speedkill) even if one composition performs 1% worse than the optimal composition, then it's not optimal. It's impossible to make every composition optimal for every fight.

I don't know how it is in your server but in mine most people won't really mind you turtle tanking in savage raids, especially since the standard strats revolve around having a main tank who keeps the boss all the time, except if there's a forced tank swap. Yes it's not optimal, but most likely so is everyone else in your group.

Let's phrase it another way. You play a game with player choices and you are an honest pacifist. But then, you learn that the only way to get the golden ending is to kill everyone in sight. Would you still be motivated by that game ?

Lol this made me laugh more than I probably should.

[Reynhart]

But do you mind if I ask why you'd consider going solo tank from the start, since you never knew if they'd put some mechanics that require two tanks?

Basically, our other tank didn't really like tanking and she heard that solo-tank was doable

Let's say we assume there's a super tanky job that allows solo tank composition, then it'll either be the one optimal composition or not.

Not necessarily. You can have different setup that will bring the same overall DPS, just not split the same way. And no, 1% is not enough to point a clear optimal setup, since there is always a random part in fights, and you also need to consider player skill. Frankly, if turtle tanking, or PLD as a whole, did only 1% less than the stance-dancing or bringing WAR+DRK, we wouldn't even have this conversation

I don't know how it is in your server but in mine most people won't really mind you turtle tanking in savage raids, especially since the standard strats revolve around having a main tank who keeps the boss all the time, except if there's a forced tank swap. Yes it's not optimal, but most likely so is everyone else in your group.

In my static, we were criticized for not skipping phases while learning the fight...yeah, not the best experience.

The optimum, by definition, is a single thing.

No, the optimum is a single result, not a single formula. It's like the total is right

Like I get that you apparently don't like how raid tanking works in FFXIV, but it's been this way for like four years now. Maybe you just don't like tanking in FFXIV.

Not, it's been like that for two years. Exactly because you could do solo tank strats in Coil even during progression, where the tank stance is pretty much required (Unless you overgear stuff), and because, lots of fights in ARR were more mechanic-based than DPS based.

[aleph_null]

Basically, our other tank didn't really like tanking and she heard that solo-tank was doable

I see. I guess that works if you're late into the progression since you can know that stuff. I was thinking along the line of bringing one tank for a new raid tier nobody knows anything about, which is just crazy considering the possibility of it not working. Also during first days/weeks gearing multiple jobs would be difficult/costly unless you have an alt (and a group for that alt to raid with).

Not necessarily. You can have different setup that will bring the same overall DPS, just not split the same way. And no, 1% is not enough to point a clear optimal setup, since there is always a random part in fights, and you also need to consider player skill. Frankly, if turtle tanking, or PLD as a whole, did only 1% less than the stance-dancing or bringing WAR+DRK, we wouldn't even have this conversation

Well maybe 1% is an exaggeration, but even with minor dps differences you'll still be able to determine which composition is better, even if on average. Let's say they make the super tanky job's dps low by balancing it against the best players in the best raid composition, then its dps will probably be way too low to be worth it for most groups whose players don't play as well as those best players (yeah we all know the performance gaps between the top dps players and your average PF dps). Adding one dps and substracting one tank is pretty complex when you consider the utilities and raid buffs brought by that fifth dps, since that'll bring everyone else's dps up too. So the value of that super tanky job would depend on the jobs of the dps players in the group, which just makes balancing messier.

Personally I don't like the idea of balancing mitigation and healing requirements vs dps because I'm way too skeptical that the devs can pull it off. Looking at how they changed some jobs as shown in the media tour made me question whether they actually know how to play the game they made, or at least how the good players play it. I'd rather have all tanks having similar mitigation and similar dps contribution (personal dps + utilities/buffs), since that'll likely make all of them viable for raiding, even if they won't all be optimal for speedkills.

In my static, we were criticized for not skipping phases while learning the fight...yeah, not the best experience.

Well I guess I'm sorry to hear that. From what I've heard from my friends playing in NA/EU servers most of the time those people complaining about dps/cleric stance uptime don't even pull very high numbers anyway.

Personally I think there are two ways of doing things in progression. You can play safe and practice until you can deal with mechanics (pretty much JP servers' RF practice culture), or you can just brute force through things with raw dps (sometimes you can skip some nasty mechanics or just kill the boss faster), and there's nothing wrong with either of them. If you want to clear quickly you need a bit of both and good judgment on where you should play safe or where you should be greedy with dps to push stuffs.

[Reynhart]

So the value of that super tanky job would depend on the jobs of the dps players in the group, which just makes balancing messier.

That's what I find interesting about how you'd balance Tank stance uptime vs SAM dps. If you have a "poor" SAM, it will generate "poor" hate, so, you'll still be free to drop your stance. But the more skilled your SAM is, the more you'll struggle to keep aggro off him and the more time you'll spend in tank stance.
So, in fact, your DPS will indeed depend on the DPS of your SAM.

Personally I don't like the idea of balancing mitigation and healing requirements vs dps because I'm way too skeptical that the devs can pull it off.

Well, we could argue that they can't even really pull off DPS vs DPS
But, for me making tanks compete in whole different benefits will make the disparities more blurry.

Another thing that could be done is create more synergy between jobs. a PLD could be better than a WAR...if it's paired with <insert_DPS_here>. A simple example is having a healer spell that restores a fixed percentage of HP, and spreading a fragment of that healing amount to the party. For this type of healing, WAR is the best tank, because, even though the WAR itsef is not really healed for more eHP than a PLD or DRK, the rest of the party will be cured for a higher amount.

I'd rather have all tanks having similar mitigation and similar dps contribution (personal dps + utilities/buffs), since that'll likely make all of them viable for raiding, even if they won't all be optimal for speedkills.

For me, it would only make chosing a specific tank job pointless.

[xvshanevx]

Admittedly I started playing near 3.1 so I never experienced raiding in coil. But do you mind if I ask why you'd consider going solo tank from the start, since you never knew if they'd put some mechanics that require two tanks? I'm currently discussing group composition for my static in 4.0 and we won't even consider going solo tank or solo heal for that very reason: we don't know what's in there.

The solo tank strat for T8 and T9 was doable day 1 because there wasn't an actual tank swap mechanic required for the fights. There was a tank swap for the savage versions, though.

Well I guess I'm sorry to hear that. From what I've heard from my friends playing in NA/EU servers most of the time those people complaining about dps/cleric stance uptime don't even pull very high numbers anyway.

I had a similar experience with a static and the leader complained about my DPS during AS11 prog. I was about 200 less DPS than the average WAR (I was being cheap with my pots and popping into Defiance for the EDD add). We were never able to skip the Lapis stage, and so our BRD (RL) went off on me for having low DPS numbers, and that if I didn't bring up my numbers that I would be kicked. So, I told her not to waste her time and left. Seeing that we were only getting him down to 68% before phase push, I didn't think that that 200 additional DPS would be the 7% we needed to clear, so, to me, it seemed that the other DPS were not doing their bare minimum (this was, like, week two of Creator release, and all we really had were Sophi weapons).

The kicker? Saw them a month later still recruiting for a WAR (and also 2 DPS) with progression in AS11 after Lapis. She could've kept her mouth shut, kept me, and we would've been farming AS12 now. Eh, found a better group anyways for Stormblood.

But, ya, the NA mentality for Tank/Healer DPS, especially for players like me, feels more like a scapegoat for bad DPS to blame others for their short comings.

[aleph_null]

The solo tank strat for T8 and T9 was doable day 1 because there wasn't an actual tank swap mechanic required for the fights. There was a tank swap for the savage versions, though.

But that "day 1" would probably be after the first clear videos are uploaded, no? Otherwise how could you be sure that there's no tank swap mechanic in those fights? I was thinking if you're preparing for a new raid tier (before it's released) you won't consider a solo tank or solo heal composition, so those niche compositions are mostly reserved for post clear runs or groups that progress late (after clear videos or guides are up). Of course mid progression if you think a solo heal or solo tank composition would help you clear faster you can ask one of the tanks/healers to swap, though that'll be quite costly. Gearing up an alt job would require crafted gear since raid and tomestone gear are locked so you'll probably reserve them for your main job.

I had a similar experience with a static and the leader complained about my DPS during AS11 prog. I was about 200 less DPS than the average WAR (I was being cheap with my pots and popping into Defiance for the EDD add). We were never able to skip the Lapis stage, and so our BRD (RL) went off on me for having low DPS numbers, and that if I didn't bring up my numbers that I would be kicked. So, I told her not to waste her time and left. Seeing that we were only getting him down to 68% before phase push, I didn't think that that 200 additional DPS would be the 7% we needed to clear, so, to me, it seemed that the other DPS were not doing their bare minimum (this was, like, week two of Creator release, and all we really had were Sophi weapons).

The kicker? Saw them a month later still recruiting for a WAR (and also 2 DPS) with progression in AS11 after Lapis. She could've kept her mouth shut, kept me, and we would've been farming AS12 now. Eh, found a better group anyways for Stormblood.

But, ya, the NA mentality for Tank/Healer DPS, especially for players like me, feels more like a scapegoat for bad DPS to blame others for their short comings.

There are of course times where tanks/healers underperform and having them step up their dps may mean skipping something you couldn't before, or the difference between clearing and not clearing. However we need to be realistic about it too. The difference of 7% of the boss' hp is nowhere near realistic to consider pushing. Not even LB could help you there. If they're blaming tanks/healers' dps for not pushing it, they're just bad and probably have little idea about their own jobs.

[shao32]

If I knew there was a way to clear it as effectively with an usual setup, I might have tried it with my static.

my static are 1 paladin, 1 warrior, 2 monks (one its me), 1blm, 1 sumoner, 2 bards, 1 ninja and a ast/whm and a sch.

we are not the tipical raid how only have 8 players and try to get the jobs to gain all that raid dps, in fact im main DRK but i was forced to play as monk bcs is my second main bcs the other 2 tanks dont have any idea to play a dps, we complete alexander with paladin staying in shield oat the entire fight, as12 was killed by the worst set up with 2 monks, blm and bard and still we clreared it around the second pools.

as a main tank stance dancind have nothing to do with skill or something like that, its just work like a cleric stance but better, dont change my rotation or how my job works at all, and is a DPS gain but you need good healers for it not like my scholar how shield us after the hit.

you can complete every fight if you want with every set up if you raid have hands to dealt with the mechanics properly and you dps dont lack much.

for my own part i say i hate all this stance dancing strats, more because dont depend complety of me to being executed properly and i will love if in stromblood disapear forever.