Boycotting Warrior 4.0 (Let's do it!)

[bswpayton]

Fundamentally the tanks need to be approximately interchangeable from the perspective of the encounter otherwise you not only have class-balance problems but you have encounter balance problems.
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but the thing is nobody wants to tank , so why on earth would you force tanks into a play style that they arent asking for , leave tanks alone and let people who are willing to tank play them the way they want I dont get SE sometimes

[Reynhart]

but the thing is nobody wants to tank , so why on earth would you force tanks into a play style that they arent asking for , leave tanks alone and let people who are willing to tank play them the way they want I dont get SE sometimes

First, wrong, some people like to tank and second, by not forcing tanks into a single play style, the meta is...forcing tanks into a single play style.

Since we have three jobs, we could cover three different style of players.

[Venjenz]

but the thing is nobody wants to tank , so why on earth would you force tanks into a play style that they arent asking for , leave tanks alone and let people who are willing to tank play them the way they want I dont get SE sometimes

Not true. Plenty of people want to tank. 15-20% of the player base plays tanks.

Tanking is (1) having the highest Effective Hit Point (EHP) pool, (2) keeping as much of the incoming damage as the mechanics will allow aimed at that highest EHP pool, (3) smoothing out incoming damage as much as possible to make encounters both survivable and predictable. That's THE ROLE.

Now there are plenty of ways to manage how each tank job approaches those core mechanics of the MMO tank role, but in the end, you are there to keep a predictable and reliable max EHP pool between the bad guys and the rest of the party. PLD can be shieldy-blocky EHP, WAR can be berzerker "my rage lets me shrug off your feeble dmg" style EHP, and DRK can be "I feast on your soul to strengthen myself" EHP. However they do it, the end result remains the same - put your EHP between bad guys and your party, and keep it there.

That is the tank core playstyle, and everything is window dressing on how that gets accomplished. Look at any other MMO's tank classes, and theorycraft out an optimal 30-120 second sustained threat generation + incoming dmg mitigation throughput, then change raid bosses, trash, AE, etc and average it all out, and you'll end up seeing how tanking is remarkably the same across different games and each game's tanks. Same thing here, ideally.

[bswpayton]

Not true.

But look at all these threads nobody wants a damage nerf, whats the complaint on this thread warrior cant stance dance like they use to thats a playstyle people enjoy. Another thread about drk blood price locked behind grit, like these are not changes people want nor where asking for so why SE thinks people will keep playing tanks they could be losing them.

That 20 percent could very well be people whom level tanks doesnt mean they main them, doesnt mean they will take them into serious content, I know a ton of tanks who want even tank anything outside of potd. So that number is def flawed, by focusing more on tanking only this will lose some tanks where I dont really believe we have room to lose anymore tanks. Many tanks like options only tanking in tank stance limits those options and may make some players not even bother anymore. They need to quit while they are ahead before they run the already small number away from the jobs completely.

[Reynhart]

But look at all these threads nobody wants a damage nerf

Each thread only contains the PoV of a vocal minority.

But even with only a small fraction of the playerbase, you know that not everybody want to tank agressively. Just look at any of the past STR vs VIT tank or, stance dancing vs turtling.

Many tanks like options only tanking in tank stance limits those options and may make some players not even bother anymore.

Yes, we like options, but it's sad that the only option they put in the game is "stance dancing".

[bswpayton]

Each thread only contains the PoV of a vocal minority.

But even with only a small fraction of the playerbase, you know that not everybody want to tank agressively. Just look at any of the past STR vs VIT tank or, stance dancing vs turtling.

Yes, we like options, but it's sad that the only option they put in the game is "stance dancing".

stance dancing is not a requirement, and if you are in a static then you should be vocal about how you want to. In a pf group u are free to tank as u please , so I dont understand , where you have to stance dance is coming from. That being said, most if not all good tanks stance dance, but again it doesnt make you a bad tank if you prefer to be in tank stance only. Meta only matters for those whom want to follow the meta its not a requirement.

[Venjenz]

Each thread only contains the PoV of a vocal minority.

And I truly believe a good number of that minority want to play DPS, but don't like the long queue times involved with that choice.

Yes, we like options, but it's sad that the only option they put in the game is "stance dancing".

Stance dancing gets around not having specializations or talent tree paths for each job. Instead of having a DPS spec and a tank spec separate (WoW, Rift, SWTOR), it's a tank who can be more or less tanky with a button press. But since FF 14 allows one player to have every job with just a gear swap, it makes sense why the three tanks are more tanky and the DPS jobs are more DPS-y.

What they should have for the tanks and heals is different ways to approach doing a fundamentally similar thing. Tanks are there to be a big EHP pool that holds attention and survives big bursts. Armor class, dodge, block, self-heals, total HP volume, etc...lots of ways to create Effective HP. So the devs could clearly be more creative to give each tank job a bit more unique flavor.

But as far as DPS goes, that's not really part of the EHP formula, and falls more to the "holding aggro" part of the job, which tank stance provides with "bonus to enmity" baked in to the lowering of outgoing DPS. I honestly see Deliverance/Sword Oath/Grit_on_off as soloing buttons like Cleric Stance, just to relieve some of the boredom of tank and healer soloing.

[Reynhart]

stance dancing is not a requirement

Well, it technically isn't but there is not situation when it's optimal to not stance dance. Because that's how the game is designed right now.
Enmity is too easy to keep, healers are too powerful so they can easily compensate the damage taken in DPS stance, etc...

So the devs could clearly be more creative to give each tank job a bit more unique flavor.

Since it would be more difficult to balance, they chose to throw away any tactictal choice of chosing any of the three tanks or healers. In fact, if fights were less scripted, it might make a deeper impact on how manage them. Monsters should react and change part of their behavior depending of what the party does, or include some random elements in their "rotation".

I honestly see Deliverance/Sword Oath/Grit_on_off as soloing buttons like Cleric Stance, just to relieve some of the boredom of tank and healer soloing.

They totally are.

[Duelle]

but the thing is nobody wants to tank , so why on earth would you force tanks into a play style that they arent asking for , leave tanks alone and let people who are willing to tank play them the way they want I dont get SE sometimes

Balance and good design in this instance are more important than any of the other factors.

Intentional imbalances make the idea of a tank roster pointless if you're going to end up with two tanks that are "good" and everyone else being subpar. That's even the reason the devs did not include a new tank or healer with Stormblood, as tank and healer balance is not where it should be. That each tank should be different in terms of gameplay is a given, and there's more to differences in gameplay beyond whether you're pushing toggles more often than others or dealing more damage. While I think WAR getting RageInner Beast is a good idea, the DRK and PLD resource bars reek of pointless gimmick but can at least be seen as a step in the right direction.

As far as people not wanting to tank, I'd have to ask why they rolled PLD, DRK or WAR in that case.

PS: If we're still going on about losing resources when changing stances, just remember that stance swaps are supposed to have a penalty. The free ride is over, though I still think it should have been over around patch 3.1.

Even with tank damage severely nerfed (a very bad move IMO) people will still rate tanks on how much DPS they do, since everything else should be automatic and is taken as a given.

This hinges on encounter design staying the same. With what they've done to healers, I'm curious as to whether EX and savage have gotten an increase in amount of overall damage taken by tanks and the raid, which would force tanks to become defensive and thus make the breaking point of playing WAR/PLD/DRK whether you can survive the damage from the boss rather than attempts at e-peen DPS.

Worst case scenario is things stay the same, where PLD (assuming the current potencies remain untouched) or WAR (because 6 fel cleaves) will rule the roost. Best case scenario being that if encounters as a whole change, tank DPS becomes a means of holding aggro and a minor contribution to overall raid DPS, since the rest is being generated by your melee and ranged DPS (which puts us on par with how the meta generally treats tanks in WoW, and that would not be a bad thing at all).