Boycotting Warrior 4.0 (Let's do it!)

[Reynhart]

But do you mind if I ask why you'd consider going solo tank from the start, since you never knew if they'd put some mechanics that require two tanks?

Basically, our other tank didn't really like tanking and she heard that solo-tank was doable

Let's say we assume there's a super tanky job that allows solo tank composition, then it'll either be the one optimal composition or not.

Not necessarily. You can have different setup that will bring the same overall DPS, just not split the same way. And no, 1% is not enough to point a clear optimal setup, since there is always a random part in fights, and you also need to consider player skill. Frankly, if turtle tanking, or PLD as a whole, did only 1% less than the stance-dancing or bringing WAR+DRK, we wouldn't even have this conversation

I don't know how it is in your server but in mine most people won't really mind you turtle tanking in savage raids, especially since the standard strats revolve around having a main tank who keeps the boss all the time, except if there's a forced tank swap. Yes it's not optimal, but most likely so is everyone else in your group.

In my static, we were criticized for not skipping phases while learning the fight...yeah, not the best experience.

The optimum, by definition, is a single thing.

No, the optimum is a single result, not a single formula. It's like the total is right

Like I get that you apparently don't like how raid tanking works in FFXIV, but it's been this way for like four years now. Maybe you just don't like tanking in FFXIV.

Not, it's been like that for two years. Exactly because you could do solo tank strats in Coil even during progression, where the tank stance is pretty much required (Unless you overgear stuff), and because, lots of fights in ARR were more mechanic-based than DPS based.

[aleph_null]

Basically, our other tank didn't really like tanking and she heard that solo-tank was doable

I see. I guess that works if you're late into the progression since you can know that stuff. I was thinking along the line of bringing one tank for a new raid tier nobody knows anything about, which is just crazy considering the possibility of it not working. Also during first days/weeks gearing multiple jobs would be difficult/costly unless you have an alt (and a group for that alt to raid with).

Not necessarily. You can have different setup that will bring the same overall DPS, just not split the same way. And no, 1% is not enough to point a clear optimal setup, since there is always a random part in fights, and you also need to consider player skill. Frankly, if turtle tanking, or PLD as a whole, did only 1% less than the stance-dancing or bringing WAR+DRK, we wouldn't even have this conversation

Well maybe 1% is an exaggeration, but even with minor dps differences you'll still be able to determine which composition is better, even if on average. Let's say they make the super tanky job's dps low by balancing it against the best players in the best raid composition, then its dps will probably be way too low to be worth it for most groups whose players don't play as well as those best players (yeah we all know the performance gaps between the top dps players and your average PF dps). Adding one dps and substracting one tank is pretty complex when you consider the utilities and raid buffs brought by that fifth dps, since that'll bring everyone else's dps up too. So the value of that super tanky job would depend on the jobs of the dps players in the group, which just makes balancing messier.

Personally I don't like the idea of balancing mitigation and healing requirements vs dps because I'm way too skeptical that the devs can pull it off. Looking at how they changed some jobs as shown in the media tour made me question whether they actually know how to play the game they made, or at least how the good players play it. I'd rather have all tanks having similar mitigation and similar dps contribution (personal dps + utilities/buffs), since that'll likely make all of them viable for raiding, even if they won't all be optimal for speedkills.

In my static, we were criticized for not skipping phases while learning the fight...yeah, not the best experience.

Well I guess I'm sorry to hear that. From what I've heard from my friends playing in NA/EU servers most of the time those people complaining about dps/cleric stance uptime don't even pull very high numbers anyway.

Personally I think there are two ways of doing things in progression. You can play safe and practice until you can deal with mechanics (pretty much JP servers' RF practice culture), or you can just brute force through things with raw dps (sometimes you can skip some nasty mechanics or just kill the boss faster), and there's nothing wrong with either of them. If you want to clear quickly you need a bit of both and good judgment on where you should play safe or where you should be greedy with dps to push stuffs.

[Reynhart]

So the value of that super tanky job would depend on the jobs of the dps players in the group, which just makes balancing messier.

That's what I find interesting about how you'd balance Tank stance uptime vs SAM dps. If you have a "poor" SAM, it will generate "poor" hate, so, you'll still be free to drop your stance. But the more skilled your SAM is, the more you'll struggle to keep aggro off him and the more time you'll spend in tank stance.
So, in fact, your DPS will indeed depend on the DPS of your SAM.

Personally I don't like the idea of balancing mitigation and healing requirements vs dps because I'm way too skeptical that the devs can pull it off.

Well, we could argue that they can't even really pull off DPS vs DPS
But, for me making tanks compete in whole different benefits will make the disparities more blurry.

Another thing that could be done is create more synergy between jobs. a PLD could be better than a WAR...if it's paired with <insert_DPS_here>. A simple example is having a healer spell that restores a fixed percentage of HP, and spreading a fragment of that healing amount to the party. For this type of healing, WAR is the best tank, because, even though the WAR itsef is not really healed for more eHP than a PLD or DRK, the rest of the party will be cured for a higher amount.

I'd rather have all tanks having similar mitigation and similar dps contribution (personal dps + utilities/buffs), since that'll likely make all of them viable for raiding, even if they won't all be optimal for speedkills.

For me, it would only make chosing a specific tank job pointless.