Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

[Eothas]

so collective unconscious is basically just AST's crappy version of Asylum.

Not true at all, the HoT part of CU stays even if you cancel the channeling (after the tick), on top of that you can extend it with Celestial Opposition. Largesse + Diurnal Aspected Helios + Aspected Benefic on MT + Collective is a super powerful HoT, beats anything that a WHM can do, then you extend it and basically has free regen for 25secs (Aspected Helios will stay for 40s) WHILE MOVING. If the new raids requires more healing like some people are expecting you can replace Expanded Balance with Expanded Bole if needed and delete WHM in the process.

It's true that no one wants to stay channeling, but you don't need to, time it correctly and you can even use the damage reduction part for a very specific mechanic before it hits if needed, something that a WHM can't do. Asylum is nice and I don't think they have to change CU, but calling it a crappy version of Asylum is a bit too much.

Bonus information: Celestial Opposion can extend Sprint, you can basically sprint non-stop for an entire minute, it will come off CD at the same time it expires.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Woah now, I'm just one person wishing WHM stood a fair chance in the raid game. Why does one job have to be singled out to be for new players only and not for serious gameplay?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...GateCharacters Just to point out that simple for beginners doesn't automatically mean they're incapable of top tier plays. Pertinent information bolded.

Not all Skill Gate characters are permanently locked out of excellence, particularly in*Fighting Games, where some Skill Gate characters double as the strongest characters in their game... when played well, at least.

[CaeliaCat]

Do you play AST? Because....collective unconscious sucks.

Just because a spell is situational does not mean that it "sucks". If an AST isn't using Collective Unconscious during Gobslice Mooncrops in A10S, Eternal Darkness in A11S, and Holy Scourge in A12S, I would argue that they are doing something wrong, especially early in progression when players have lower HP pools and are more likely to have someone with weakness. Also, just because a Diurnal AST and SCH combination may not NEED the 10% mitigation, Diurnal AST gets the ability anyway, and the mitigation stacks with sacred soil. Again, all WHM can do in any of those instances, is hope RNG grants a Lily, and then put one, piddly 15% shield on a single target. At least in HW, WHM could get stoneskin out on multiple targets! You talk about healer compositions being viable, what about WHM/WHM? Sounds like a combination for lots and lots of wipes at this point. (AST / AST and SCH / SCH both appear to work fine given what we know).

Also, I'd point out that I'm not advocating for collective unconscious to be nerfed at all. WHM just needs raid utility to be competitive for healer roles in the end game. Yes, WHM will get some raid spots and probably clear content, but let's be honest, it's to the detriment of the party that they take a WHM over either of the other healers. Longer flights with lower DPS and less room for error. I'm just lucky I have good friends.

[rainblack]

"Just wait and see" is already useless because the damage has been done. The changes didn't even need to be rolled out for WHM players to start getting harassed and kicked out of gameplay. SE doesn't even need to remove it from the game, the players have already started.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

, WHM will get some raid spots and probably clear content, but let's be honest, it's to the detriment of the party that they take a WHM over either of the other healers. Longer flights with lower DPS and less room for error. I'm just lucky I have good friends.

This pretty much sums up WHMs position in raiding. It can clear content, but it feels more like a handicap than a helpful asset.
People are still holding on to this idea that AST cards is of little importance.
A 10% AOE buff for up to 40 seconds is NOT negligible. That makes a difference. That's the type of damage boost that can let you skip entire phases.

The fact is, you can't have one job not offer something, and everyone else offer it. We saw what happened with Monk and raid utility. It's a shame they didn't actually learn from that.
Heck, they could have even made WHM the Sam of healers. That is, so much healing and personal damage that you don't even miss the damage buffs. Screw the utility and make them walking nukes. I would personally LOVE that and fully embrace the idea of a pure healer that functions like that.

[Kethic]

but let's be honest, it's to the detriment of the party that they take a WHM over either of the other healers.

This mentality is exactly the problem. We have theorycrafted numbers on incomplete and/or incorrect data, and people are already kicking WHM to the curb, in a community that won't bother to check the results against reality afterwards. Lily and Conf may be shit design, but we have no solid evidence that WHM isn't viable yet. Sadly, people have already decided.

[rainblack]

This mentality is exactly the problem. We have theorycrafted numbers on incomplete and/or incorrect data, and people are already kicking WHM to the curb, in a community that won't bother to check the results against reality afterwards. Lily and Conf may be shit design, but we have no solid evidence that WHM isn't viable yet. Sadly, people have already decided.

It's easy to argue over why it's happening and whether it's justified, but at the end of the day, WHM needs a redesign or players are going to continue to harass and votekick WHM players. It's unfortunate, but playerbase mass decisions like this are the final decision on job viability as long as it's a game with a social element.

[CaeliaCat]

This mentality is exactly the problem. We have theorycrafted numbers on incomplete and/or incorrect data, and people are already kicking WHM to the curb, in a community that won't bother to check the results against reality afterwards. Lily and Conf may be shit design, but we have no solid evidence that WHM isn't viable yet. Sadly, people have already decided.

WHM may be viable! As a WHM "main", I certainly hope so! That doesn't change the fact that based on all the available information we have now, the job appears to be inferior by a not insignificant margin. Also, you can't blame the people raising concerns (get it?) to the development team for the behavior of some uninformed trolls in party finder.

[Kethic]

I certainly don't have any issue with people raising concerns, and I agree that the current information is worth some anxiety. ;-p But we don't get to hand-wave away the responsibility of those burying the class before we know the reality. There is a difference.

[Miste]

Not true at all, the HoT part of CU stays even if you cancel the channeling

The AST has to continuously be stuck channeling it to get the 10% shield part of it so it is often just used to get the Regen from it then it is promptly cancelled

because you only get the 10% reduction as long as the AST is channeling

No good AST is going to sit for all of collective unconscious' duration to get the 10% shield

I clarified I was only talking about the 10% shield when it comes to the channeling aspect. The person I replied to was talking mostly about the 10% shield not the HoT. So you might want to pay a bit closer attention there :x

As for your other points you can try to time it, but you are always losing a GCD with CU and most things don't hit enough to need the 10% shield anyway.

The server tick just happened before you used it? You didn't get the shield aspect because it didn't proc in time for the hit anyway and you likely lost a GCD.

Use it too early? You are stuck channeling until the hit goes off and lose multiple GCDs.

Tank buster?...some tank busters are cleaves and you'd possibly get yourself killed if you tried to channel your CU for MT.

It's very situational since you only have use for it maybe one or two times a fight even though you could have used it 6 times in a 10 minute fight. While Asylum can be used every time it is off cooldown to cover the tank with regens so more DPS is possible. CU is not useless, but the clunkiness is why I said it sucks :/ waiting and losing GCD's for it to proc the regen by itself even is annoying and to me usually not worth it when you can just cast an aspected helios instead.

I vastly prefer Asylum over CU.

Just because a spell is situational does not mean that it "sucks".

I understand that, but it is just my opinion on it. On AST nothing frustrates me more than sitting channeling waiting for the server tick to happen to get the regen. It is clunky so I don't care for it.

If an AST isn't using Collective Unconscious during Gobslice Mooncrops in A10S, Eternal Darkness in A11S, and Holy Scourge in A12S, I would argue that they are doing something wrong, especially early in progression when players have lower HP pools and are more likely to have someone with weakness.

I don't use it always for those. I am paired with a SCH so he just uses Sacred Soil instead and we both DPS and then time AoE heals (the channeling aspect of CU makes it not worth using if you can actively DPS the boss instead).

Diurnal AST gets the ability anyway

Yes because...

WHM + AST of course you would use CU for every one of those boss ultimates since WHM doesn't have a 10% mitigation field so that's why I said it isn't really ridiculous that AST has CU. Unless we want AST + WHM to be missing shields for those mechanics you just mentioned :/

You talk about healer compositions being viable, what about WHM/WHM? Sounds like a combination for lots and lots of wipes at this point. (AST / AST and SCH / SCH both appear to work fine given what we know).

Double stacking the same healer job is not supposed to be viable :x it works...on a basic level for casual content because with DF you can't always get two healers of different jobs, but its not supposed to be good or better than 2 different healer jobs together.

The healer pairs we want good and viable are:

WHM + SCH
AST + WHM
SCH + AST

Also, I'd point out that I'm not advocating for collective unconscious to be nerfed at all.

Well it could be nerfed if it had to be tbh it is too situational to be really useful, but it just doesn't need to be nerfed because its usefulness is not overpowered really.

WHM just needs raid utility to be competitive for healer roles in the end game.

I agree with you on that.

but let's be honest, it's to the detriment of the party that they take a WHM over either of the other healers.

I think it is too soon to say something like this. Haven't played the expansion yet. I agree with you it SEEMS bad...but I try to keep some optimism.

Although I do want to try everything first...honestly WHM adds a lot of reliable DPS while AST's cards are RNG and AST's DPS got nerfed into the ground along with SCH (but even SCH does more) so maybe it is possible WHM's DPS will be high enough where it is comparable to what an AST averages. Just speculation though.

I'm actually debating which to play...I don't like what they did to AST personally...I really love the new WHM AF as well and WHM actually seems more fun to play since their DPS rotation didn't get nerfed quite as heavily.