Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

[Reiryuu]

Oooh, that's a thought! I'm sure that'll-

Wait, MCH already has something exactly like that in Hyper charge. There's also Trick Attack, And if we wanna get really technical, Storm's Eye, Disembowel, Dragon Kick...

So the implication is that they should give WHM a damage spell that causes them to take more damage right? Regardless of whether it's a DoT or not, it's still pretty much ripping off all of the above abilities in what it effectively does, making it once again a carbon copy, only this time it's copying every other role except healers!

Well, all people care about is dps, not support, so I guess such an example is natural...

Well, your argument was a defensive ability. I only wanted to counter with an example for one that was more offensive in nature. But I agree with you that the meta is so blind to anything that's not +DPS that anything else would be largely ignored. =/ Maybe a white wind ability that's a very slow regen + slight haste? *shrug*

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

=/ Maybe a white wind ability that's a very slow regen + slight haste? *shrug*

Well, now you're just flat out copying SCH's Fey Wind. Pretty much every type of offensive buff has already been covered by one of the other classes, so there really isn't anything they can give WHM that wouldn't be straight copying from someone else. As it is now, unless SE does something to shake up the healer meta, they'll be playing pretty much exactly the same way they have been for the last four years.

And thus, with the dps obsession, the meta stagnates further.

[Reiryuu]

*snip*

And you're being a little overobsessed with copying. Is the Arrow card with Expanded also a copy of Fey Wind? The numbers don't have to be the same. The random idea (which admittely was off the top of the head) was just something of a very slow, long lasting regen with a small haste component. You don't have to be so on edge accusing every suggestion of a blatant copy.

There's only so many ways one can play to the meta without turning it upside down and that is something I doubt SE will be able to do with the way they have set things up and design things.

[Acidblood]

I disagree with your wishes, I rather a more dynamic composition. I would very much like if a party doesn't take a whm that they'll have to get the assisted healing from combinations of other roles (tank/dps). A system like the one I described will better enforce WHM as a PURE healer.

The scenario you ended up with with whm marginally excess would CONTINUE to leave WHM out of the meta b/c.... we don't need 2HP/s more when ast/whm 100 HP/s does just fine.

Unless of course u want them to make all the healers the same.

More dynamic? You mean by having pre-forced group compositions based on class / encounter design?

And I never said they had to all be the same (thus the 2HP/s more)... e.g. WHM can bring slightly more heals (making it bit easier to survive; 2% isn't overkill) and some unique utility / buffs, compared to AST who brings a greater flexability and range of buffs, compared to SCH who brings a unique utility (fairy) and powerful shields (which are arguably better than reactive heals, but don't stack).

And of course other classes can help, but that should be up to their role balance (e.g. PLD brings more heals / mitigation = more time for Healer DPS and less MP stress, WAR brings more personal DPS but requires generally more heals, etc.), and not balanced against the Healers (e.g. Don't have WHM? Must bring a PLD).

So basically, you want the class balance to remain the way it is, with WHM being devoutly ignored in favor of their SCH/AST brethren because WHM's have a weak enough identity as it is. The only unique utility they could potentially give WHM would be more defensive utility, since the opposite would just be a carbon copy of SCH and AST... at which point people will still take the latter 2 instead of the former one because it'll remain easier and more dependable due to higher personal dps.

No, I want WHM utility increased (and there are plenty of options, from a better Protect, to Haste, to Refresh (remove all status aliments)) and if that means a nerf on healing power then so be it. And what does personal DPS have to do with healing balance? (i.e. just because SCH does more DPS now doesn't mean that needs to remain the case).

On the OTHER hand if we weaken the utility healers heals such that they can still clear casual content but need to either take the role skill to increase their healing/cooperation from their party in order to help them reach that threshold, suddenly you have a situation where not only is every healer viable, but suddenly each party has their own strengths and weaknesses, which can be overcome through a combination of player skill with their chosen class, savvy and expert usage of the party's chosen support skills, and comfort with their chosen class.

No, we already did that in 2.0, and SCH complained that a SCH / SCH combo couldn't put out enough heals to clear Coil = WHM nerf and SCH buff... and again in 3.0, where no one played AST until they got buffed to the healing level of WHM/SCH and had untouchable utility (for WHM at least) to boot.

So yes, if SE stuck to a hard line that SCH / AST was not meant to be able to heal certain content then that may work, but history has proven twice now that they won't, so I don't see why it will be 3rd time lucky and it is always WHMs that lose out.

[Lozza]

The biggest concern I have is honestly the part where Yoshi said "we want WHM to be pure healers". As an AST I see this stance as more than a little silly, even in groups doing savage and ex content with single healers no one would use a WHM above a noct AST, which not only can turn out heals of a similar size, but also has access to shields and offensive and defensive buffs - not to mention gravity being a cast on target aoe rather than player-centric.

I've a friend who mains WHM who gets overlooked in favour of a SCH or a 2nd AST in 8 man content constantly. Without nerfing AST heals considerably (which I don't want) WHM simply cannot shine as a "pure healer". If the lily bar thing they show does allow for say a new stone skin or something then we are getting to the point where the healers are literally all the same - having heals and shields both and only being distinguishable by the buffs they bring to a party.

While it might be too early to complain that WHM is dead, the wait and see people seem to be missing the fact that the devs don't really leave things to surprises. Tease, yes but the teasers always culminate in actual disclosure. Add to that the statement about WHM being "pure healers" and I doubt we are going to see any surprises in actual skills for WHM with SB - so the only thing remaining to lift WHM back up is how much they nerf AST and SCH.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

I like this huge circle we're going in.

Can't buff WHM heals too much, it'll trivialize content.
Can't give them buffs, it'll creep into AST identity.
Can't give them defensive utility, it'll ultimately be the same as what they already have and Balance will be taken over it.

So what can we do? Give them something unique! Like higher DPS! Oh but they have shit MP, and their DPS wouldn't make up for a Balance.

So buff WHMs heals so it's drastically stronger?
And we're back.

Sigh, SE really has created a mess with making Balance overpowered. Even nerfing it now, players have had a taste of it, and will never let go of it now. Pure healing is never, ever going to work. At this point, I'd rather them come out and tell us "pls don't bring WHM to raid because we have no intention on making them competitive".

That's also another problem we have on our hands. It's been made very clear that SE doesn't care about actual balance, or being competitive at all. They care more about making every job simply viable. And that's just not good enough. Sure you can clear content with WHM. But you're handicapping your entire party by doing so.
They fixed issues with Monk and PLD, did they just get lazy when it came to WHM or something?

[Sebazy]

Regarding the role actions, I suspect all 3 healers are going to lose out on that front in the same way that tanks are. The saving grace here is the buffs that Surecast got, if other abilities get the same treatment then it might actually turn out to be ok. We just don't know for sure yet.

And safety nets don't mean anything in the top groups where everyone plays almost flawlessly most of the time, or when people know what to do. And I simply hate the argument that WHM is the healer for bad groups.

Unfortunately I suspect that that's what SE see it as =/

Step out of the perfect sterile world that is theory crafting on these forums, and people do make mistakes, this is where the safety net of WHMs additional HPs comes into play. People make mistakes, healers drop the ball from time to time. Whilst that extra HPS that WHM brings is overkill on a perfect run, this is where it becomes worthwhile. Not every static is progression grade and not every healer can play perfectly for 10 minutes straight. That's the value that SE are aiming for I think.

[Lozza]

WHM as a pure healer is a problematic ideal.
Not having played many FF titles when people say "haste" I think more like super speed rather than cast/skill speed. Honestly that could be an interesting play for WHM even with sprint not using TP and doesn't eat into any of the buffs SCH/AST have. "But then everyone will need it" I'm not so sure. A super speed type buff would help people get out of the way of incoming dmg true and depending on CD would make movement between bosses faster but at the same time the speed of a clear is not entirely dependent on how fast you can move from place to place. People heavily invested in DPS would still likely take SCH/AST for 8 mans but I think players would at least be willing to use WHM as a 2nd healer for a buff like that.

As things stand at the moment if WHM gets no group wide utility then the only way SE will be able to make them relevant again is to nerf SCH and AST.

[Sorcerious]

You simply cannot balance for the top 1%, for the people who play all day, raid 7 times a week and want to be competitive for world firsts and the likes.

WHM will stay the go to healer for people like me, people who just raid in a friendly and relaxed atmosphere, and don't compete to bring a boss down asap. Everything in here is getting blown out of proportion as always happens on MMO forums . People preach doom and gloom and look, the game will live on.

And arguing and circlejerking about this one 'issue' (which I hardly call an issue) is not doing something, as everyone views this from their personal viewpoint. Devs always have access to more data and statistics than you can ever dream of.

Bunch of whiney crybabies, WHM surely are.

[javid]

I still don't see why ppl are against WHM being the PLD (easy safe option) of healing? If the safety net that a whm provides is marginal to the ast/sch combo... not just the top 1% will phase it out. Make AST/SCH composition more extremely dependent on party composition and Optimal execution. There should be some noticeable trade off for opting out of a whm. Still make all comps VIABLE. Just raise the difficulty level.

For those that are against Whm being a PURE healer, there is no other direction they can take WHM and not make them a copy of Ast (which AST SHOULD BE A SUB COPY OF WHM) or a direct copy of SCH.