Stop Giving the "Need" Command for Drop Gear in Dungeons to Higher Geared Players!

[Cordie]

[…] giving class/roles priority on gear designed for their use is a legitimate allocation of potential rewards. You are arguing to remove that reward. That's clearly not "satisfying both parties," that's redressing the OP with slight variation.

Except “designed” use is inconsequential to its effective use (which is as designed in only 1 out of 6 cases) and the latter is what dictates whether an item is “needed” or not. As mentioned by others in the thread, their needs weigh the same as the OP’s or anyone else’s. Therefore, basing a system (as it is currently set up) on a biased preference for a “designed use” is only leading to an imbalanced valuation of everyone’s needs, by limiting choice in this case.
A “potential reward” is not a reward. It’s an incentive, at most. Combining this with the limitations on choice gives you a compromise : you lose options (as in what class you can go in with) to get something potentially. And guess what! In my suggestion, you can still get something potentially, without the limitations.
The OP’s proposal to remove the need option from a specific group in one particular case is highly conditional and involves only the contrasts for 1 reason to need an item. My suggestion addresses all cases, with no conditions.

Skewed implies heavily imbalanced. 2% is not even close.

Skewness
Light party – left-side gear : -0.342
Light party – accessories : -0.106
Full party (1 tank) – left side gear : 0.571
Full party (1 tank) – accessories : 1.207

When I say skewed it means skewed.

Hell, if we want to use your math for probability of acquiring gear, under your suggestion, you would reduce all party members down to a 3% chance of acquiring the gear they want for left side in light party, and 1.6% in full party. Don't believe me? Take that 14.2% chance of a drop occurring, multiply by 0.25 or 0.125 based on party size, and you have the odds of getting your piece. Each party member may have a 25% or 12.5% chance on each piece that drops, but for specific drops it plummets. Bouncing between specific and general applications is less than honest if you want your argument to hold weight.

For one item type, it’s a 1/7 for left-side gear and a 1/5 for accessories. Subtract the values you see on the table to get the probability of all other members obtaining the item. Add the 2 probabilities, divide by 4 (for light party) or 8 (for full party), and tell me how my suggestion is magically affecting all party members’ chance to acquire it.

My suggestion is a general solution: Unlock need button for every item and everyone, irrespective of role/job/class.
I am not addressing things on a case-by-case basis, so I am not sure where you see the “bouncing”. Perhaps you are implicitly merging my suggestion with the OP’s. This would result in a different suggestion “bouncing” between a general and specific cases if you cared to formulate it and falsely attribute it to me, and since you didn’t you have no grounds for your claim.

Everything is not specific. They are polar opposites. Lol.

Everything includes specific. “Specific” is a case or subset of everything. You can’t compare them in any other fashion much less declare them opposites!

And your point is daft as hell so I didn't even bother to respond to it.

If this is the (current) attitude towards people not getting loot why should you expect it to change with any system?

If they want gear for … Not looking too crash hot.

I hope you see you are defending a system with an arbitrary and imbalanced evaluation of needs. It shows in how you must add more conditions and case-specific limitations (“targeting”) to address each of the cases for every need I am treating equally.

It is a DISADVANTAGE to those who want gear for the class they are playing.
How does a decrease to 25% chance of getting that piece of gear (if it dropped) from 100% (or 50% on the off chance it's shared) BENEFIT these players?
Reduced chance of getting a piece of gear is not a benefit... I think you have your definitions mixed around..

If you claim it is a disadvantage and want a benefit at others’ expense you need some good reason to attribute greater value to this need than all others, which goes against what you and others have attested in needing items “just as much”. The requirement for being on the job/class/role is only a side-effect of the current system, and is eliminated in my suggestion.

Yes. Everyone gets rubbish sub-5% drop rates on stuff they specifically NEED and have no way to improve that chance, over and above asking people in the party to pass in good faith.
I would rather stick to my 15-20% rate, and choose a class specific to the gear I need. Not sure about you..

Rubbish sub-5% is what everyone gets currently too: for every person that can roll need and get an item there are 3 or 7 ppl who don’t get it. Except now it’s also skewed, favouring specific classes/jobs at the expense of others, pushing ppl in the class/job they should be playing if they want more loot (not just specific items). It’s only an illusion of choice; the choice itself is rigged.

And you expect people to just pass in good faith? Sorry but I don't trust the community on this one, and it amazes me that you would.

If anything, I wouldn’t expect “asking politely in the dungeon if people are willing to give them specific pieces” to become more of a burden compared to what it is now, especially if it was expected.

I see no problem with that. It's the same as when a piece doesn't correspond to anyone's class/job in the current system.

You do realize this statement completely contradicts your insistence everyone benefits from your purposed changes, yes?

And this would be the case if:
(a) I had not written that it benefits everyone to the same extent :

My suggestion benefits (i) those that want gear for a class they aren’t playing to the same extent it benefits
(ii) those who want gear for the class they are playing,
(iii) those who want gear for glamours for a class they aren’t playing,
(iv) those who want gear for glamours for the class they are playing,
(v) those who want gear for desynths,
(vi) those who want the gear for seals.
It is exactly the same for everyone.

See the “to the same extent” part there in bold? It’s on the first line. See the “It is exactly the same for everyone.”? It’s on the last line.
AND
(b) This statement (“I see no problem with that. It's the same as when a piece doesn't correspond to anyone's class/job in the current system.”) indicates a need-case specific predilect outcome of asking the party to roll greed/pass. And it so happens that the aforementioned statement does not influence whether others will roll greed/pass when requested.
Sorry to inform you that there is no contradiction there.

If new players are at the mercy of their party to acquire dungeon drops, the entire point of the system breaks.

No, they are at the mercy of RNG, and communication with the party may reduce RNG’s contribution.

The only reason dungeons even drop gear is so newer players can upgrade without depending on Tomestones. The rest of us typically won't care since we'll be using Shire or Alexander pieces.

If this is the only reason dungeons drop gear, seeing it is not enforced (i.e. the items can be obtained by rolling “Need” not to be equipped but to be desynthesized or traded-in for GC seals), the current system may be already broken.

Your system only benefits greed rolls. […] That's not a good system.

Needing loot is legitimate for all its uses (gearing classes/jobs, glamours, desynth, seals) and is valued the same for every case (there are quite a few references to this by others just in this thread). You can’t preferentially treat some as greed. And my suggestion treats all equally.

[Felis]

The requirement for being on the job/class/role is only a side-effect of the current system, and is eliminated in my suggestion.

It is not really a side-effect. It is the core effect.

[Cordie]

It is not really a side-effect. It is the core effect.

Works too.

[Bloody]

Except “designed” use is inconsequential to its effective use (which is as designed in only 1 out of 6 cases) and the latter is what dictates whether an item is “needed” or not. As mentioned by others in the thread, their needs weigh the same as the OP’s or anyone else’s. Therefore, basing a system (as it is currently set up) on a biased preference for a “designed use” is only leading to an imbalanced valuation of everyone’s needs, by limiting choice in this case.
A “potential reward” is not a reward. It’s an incentive, at most. Combining this with the limitations on choice gives you a compromise : you lose options (as in what class you can go in with) to get something potentially. And guess what! In my suggestion, you can still get something potentially, without the limitations.

Um, this is an MMO with random number generation drop chances. All gear rewards are incentives, because enough effort will eventually yield the desired item. Are semantics the only fuel you have left?

Skewness
Light party – left-side gear : -0.342
Light party – accessories : -0.106
Full party (1 tank) – left side gear : 0.571
Full party (1 tank) – accessories : 1.207

When I say skewed it means skewed.

Look at your table, now back at these numbers. Now look back at that table. First off, there is at most a 2.1% difference in left side gear, which does not equate to a 34% skew. I think you need to make sure you aren't trying to over-complicate your formulas there.

For one item type, it’s a 1/7 for left-side gear and a 1/5 for accessories. Subtract the values you see on the table to get the probability of all other members obtaining the item. Add the 2 probabilities, divide by 4 (for light party) or 8 (for full party), and tell me how my suggestion is magically affecting all party members’ chance to acquire it.

My suggestion is a general solution: Unlock need button for every item and everyone, irrespective of role/job/class.
I am not addressing things on a case-by-case basis, so I am not sure where you see the “bouncing”. Perhaps you are implicitly merging my suggestion with the OP’s. This would result in a different suggestion “bouncing” between a general and specific cases if you cared to formulate it and falsely attribute it to me, and since you didn’t you have no grounds for your claim.

Yes, it's magic that chances of obtaining certain gear plummet when you take away the one method used to ensure a decent probability.Also, I imply nothing. You clearly stated yourself in a single claim:

Probability of getting an item after rolling "Need" in a light party and full party (1tank-2healers-5dps) with any composition:



Table of specific chances, factoring the chance of drop before ability to need.

(fixed a typo in my first formula too - don't expect any miracles though)
[EDIT: just double-checked in Python, 9.5% for NIN/BRD/MCH accessories in the full-party case is actually 9.3%, and I can't find what's wrong with Excel there huh...]

Compare: greed-only rule gives a flat 25% for light party, 12.5% for full.
General percentage of acquiring any piece of loot, not factoring drop chances for a specific piece.

You were saying? I'm not mixing statements (pretty sure the OP's long gone from the feedback they received), I'm just giving you a healthy dose of differing opinion using your own provided data.

Rubbish sub-5% is what everyone gets currently too: for every person that can roll need and get an item there are 3 or 7 ppl who don’t get it. Except now it’s also skewed, favouring specific classes/jobs at the expense of others, pushing ppl in the class/job they should be playing if they want more loot (not just specific items). It’s only an illusion of choice; the choice itself is rigged.

Not even close, look at your own math, or are you saying your table is a sham? You reach the 3% range on specific pieces of gear only when you take away the priority given to a class/role for specific gear pieces. If those other 3-7 people see their class/role gear drop, they have nigh equivalent chances as you do if yours drops. Or are you going to try and add more variables to convolute your formula to try and justify your point?

[Emstidor]

If I'm playing a Monk and a piece of Monk gear drops, I should have priority to get the item. Not because I deserve it more, not because I need it more, not even because I'm the one who wants it the most, but because it's psychologically satisfying that if Monk gear drops, the Monk has first dibs. This is basic game design 101.

Your proposed system would leave me at the mercy of the seal-hunting Paladin, the White Mage that wants the piece for glamour, and the Dragoon with the Monk at level 14 who wants to gear it someday. That's unacceptable.

"Oh, but you can just ask them at the start of the dungeon if you can have it"

Stop. It doesn't matter if I can ask them. It doesn't matter if I got matched with the nicest players on the server, or the biggest group of dicks who'll purposely roll just to make sure I don't get it. I'm playing the class that matches the gear that dropped. They're not. I get first dibs. They don't. Full stop.

Again, it's an extremely basic tenet tied to a non-stupid reward structure of any MMORPG.

[bardaboo]

If I'm playing a Monk and a piece of Monk gear drops, I should have priority to get the item. Not because I deserve it more, not because I need it more, not even because I'm the one who wants it the most, but because it's psychologically satisfying that if Monk gear drops, the Monk has first dibs. This is basic game design 101.

Your proposed system would leave me at the mercy of the seal-hunting Paladin, the White Mage that wants the piece for glamour, and the Dragoon with the Monk at level 14 who wants to gear it someday. That's unacceptable.

"Oh, but you can just ask them at the start of the dungeon if you can have it"

Stop. It doesn't matter if I can ask them. It doesn't matter if I got matched with the nicest players on the server, or the biggest group of dicks who'll purposely roll just to make sure I don't get it. I'm playing the class that matches the gear that dropped. They're not. I get first dibs. They don't. Full stop.

Again, it's an extremely basic tenet tied to a non-stupid reward structure of any MMORPG.

Careful now... you're about to get drawn in to a 10page debate with someone who is intent on not seeing your point. He'll probably twist your words to drag on the discussion too.

[Mejingjard]

Let me get it short : OP wants a way to prevent every better geared player to be able to need the loots that suits their class, just for him to increase is chance of getting it for a class he does not play?
How does it work? The game check every ilvls for every class of each pelayer in the duty, then if they are above thoses of the OP, they cannot need the item?
Seriously this is one of the most self entitled topic I'v seen in a while. Who do you think you are?

The whole game revolves around new players, throwing loots at them like candies for litteraly NOTHING. But no that's not enough, let takes off the privilege of veteran players to "need" on their class specific loots, right ?
We are already poorly treated as veteran players, when it comes to rewards (have you ever seen how is the loot system in raids? no, I'm sure you have not the slighest clue about how we can struggle to get one loot. If you are unlucky you will need 4 weeks raiding for an accessory, when the game litteraly now give you the same item for DOING NOTHING)
But naaaaah that's not enough! These filthy ellitist high geared players should not have the right to need items suited for their class.

Stop trying to change a whole system perfectly fair just because YOU don't want to play the game how it is intended to.

And furthermore, I've yet to see someone refusing passing on a item if ask nicely. So the only thing I see here is a SPOILED LITTLE BRAT, who refuse to communicate and yet expects all other players to be punished for simply playing the game before him.
All this maths ans stats won't hide the fact that OP just sounds like a selfish person that just want everything handled down to him just because he don't want to communicate and can't accept the fact that he is not entitled to anything.
That kind of attitude should be awarded with a nice reality slap between the eyes.
You are not the victim here. The whole system is fine and fair. You want that class specific item? You play as that class or you ask politely. All your bragging won't change anything and furthermore, I will gladely roll need on everything I can if I happen to run a duty with you, OP. And I hope many players which tried to point your nonsense will do the same.

[Fyce]

The Guinness World Records are telling me that they are about to give a fourth record to FFXIV this year for "The highest number of forum pages someone has tried to backup their ridiculously absurd idea, while defying logic and common sense as much as possible".
That's something you don't see even on religious or political forums.

The downside is: I'm not sure we're going to have enough popcorn. I mean, after 31 pages of nonsense, we're already getting pretty low.

[Cordie]

Um, this is an MMO with random number generation drop chances. All gear rewards are incentives, because enough effort will eventually yield the desired item. Are semantics the only fuel you have left?

Well? Is it removed per my suggestion? Did I mention anywhere “abolish loot drops” or something?

Look at your table, now back at these numbers. Now look back at that table. First off, there is at most a 2.1% difference in left side gear, which does not equate to a 34% skew. I think you need to make sure you aren't trying to over-complicate your formulas there.

This is not what skewness is, but anyways, I’ll give you a better breakdown of who gets how much with “need” rolls:
(values from the table, with a correction in NIN/BRD/MCH accessories for full party case – 9.3% instead of 9.5%)
Light party – left-side gear
75th-100th percentile: 6 (all tanks and healers)
25th-75th percentile: 3 (all melee)
<25th percentile: 4 (all ranged dps)

Light party – accessories
75th-100th percentile: 6 (all tanks and healers)
25th-75th percentile: 0
<25th percentile: 7 (all dps)

Full party (1 taank) – left side gear
75th-100th percentile: 6 (all tanks and melee)
25th-75th percentile: 0
<25th percentile: 7 (all ranged dps and all healers)

Full party (1 taank) – accessories
75th-100th percentile: 3 (all tanks and DEX-based dps)
25th-75th percentile: 4 (STR-based melee and all casters)
<25th percentile: 3 (all healers)

Yes, it's magic that chances of obtaining certain gear plummet when you take away the one method used to ensure a decent probability.Also, I imply nothing. You clearly stated yourself in a single claim:
[…]
You were saying? I'm not mixing statements (pretty sure the OP's long gone from the feedback they received), I'm just giving you a healthy dose of differing opinion using your own provided data.
[…]
Not even close, look at your own math, or are you saying your table is a sham? You reach the 3% range on specific pieces of gear only when you take away the priority given to a class/role for specific gear pieces. If those other 3-7 people see their class/role gear drop, they have nigh equivalent chances as you do if yours drops. Or are you going to try and add more variables to convolute your formula to try and justify your point?

OK, I see where your confusion comes from:
If you paid closer attention to that post with the table you quoted you would have noticed that I am not drawing any conclusions from comparing the two probabilities (table and 25% or 12.5%), since it was intended as an intuitive comparison of how “often” you will get guaranteed loot for the case of rolling “need”.
However, you are bringing the argument of getting so much lower chances by comparing them while conveniently excluding the cases one might not be in a job with affinity to the item type, and conveniently ignoring that the cases you just excluded are included in the greed-only scenario.
Have you taken into account all 6 need cases I mentioned?

My suggestion benefits (i) those that want gear for a class they aren’t playing to the same extent it benefits
(ii) those who want gear for the class they are playing,
(iii) those who want gear for glamours for a class they aren’t playing,
(iv) those who want gear for glamours for the class they are playing,
(v) those who want gear for desynths,
(vi) those who want the gear for seals.
It is exactly the same for everyone.

I did.

[...] because it's psychologically satisfying [...]

"because it's psychologically satisfying".. hmmmm.. that's a new one.. Want me to add it to my list?

My suggestion benefits (i) those that want gear for a class they aren’t playing to the same extent it benefits
(ii) those who want gear for the class they are playing,
(iii) those who want gear for glamours for a class they aren’t playing,
(iv) those who want gear for glamours for the class they are playing,
(v) those who want gear for desynths,
(vi) those who want the gear for seals.
(vii) those who want gear because it's "psychologically satisfying"
It is exactly the same for everyone.

[Serilda]

If I go to help with a dungeon I'm overlevelled for on a role that I don't really enjoy but is needed to fill parties, I'm reducing the queue time for the other members due to the entire way the game's design works.

To keep the distracting and very silly maths simple, if I want a specific drop of a specific item, and it drops, here are the chances I have of getting it:

Everyone can and does roll Need: 25% chance
Only I can roll Need: 100% chance

If I undersize it or exclusively play with my friends, I get that 100% chance either way. It's also quicker and easier, and comes with a better social environment than being in a group with three people afraid to talk or express wishes for some reason that has yet to be explained in this thread. Ask me which I would do if they made all Need rolls irrelevant to your played role.

Enjoy your queues.