@Naoki Yoshida-> Make Samurai a Tank class!

[Walfan]

Nothing to do with that, just wondering what new could be done for a tank gameplay. I fact, I don't care about it being tank or dps, I play heal, just curious abour what kind of new tank it could be considering we already have the tradi pal, the HP monster and the leech wich aur the only 3 "types" of tank I know so far

Dodge tank, counter tank, support tank (more fitting for PLD to go forward though), debuffing/debilitating tank, etc.

[Wolf_Heartnet]

The comment comes from the PAX East 2015 Heavensward panel, in which the statement was "For Heavensward we did 3 jobs and the feedback we got from the battle team was 'we would never want to do this again, ever.'"

Which is a far cry from an adamant statement from the producer/director himself or a statement that that would never be the case again.

Also, a lot changes over time, that was from early 2015, and more recent comments from August and November imply there will be more than 2 jobs added.

And no, just because more people parrot information does not make it true, that is an argumentum ad populum fallacy.

Ok, so he did say that. Can you direct me to the comments in august and november? Were the sources live letters specifically?

btw, isn't the ad populum fallacy regarded to claiming that its True/Fact because more people parrot it? I was just saying that its more likely or does that also fall into the ad populum?

Thanks for the clarity.

[EdwinLi]

Dodge tank, counter tank, support tank (more fitting for PLD to go forward though), debuffing/debilitating tank, etc.

I can see a type of debuff tank and magic barrier type tank but dodge and counter tank is a bit iffy if we look at current content of FF14.

For starters there is a lot of anti-dodge mechanics being introduced now which can become a issue for tanks that focus on dodge and their main mechanic does not work because certain attacks are unavoidable. Then they have to consider how the dodge system will reduce damage and by what means as a 100% reduce damage based on RNG is only OP by the rate it happens and if a player is unlock no matter how high or low the rate is then that tank would end up dying faster than a Warrior, Paladin, and Dark knight.

As for Counter attack it comes down to how the damage is reflected and how much damage taken is reduced. They can't implament a 100% damage reduction unless the cooldown is high enough to prevent repeated use within a very short timeframe nor let it be based on RNG for succcess because then the Tank's ability to handle reducing damage is based on luck and not the player themselves. Then there is also the issue of certain attacks that ignore things like counter, block, and parry that can only be reduced by damage mitigation skills. Damage reflected, ideally, may be based more on the player's damage rate instead of how much damage taken since bosses now cause damage higher than what player characters can cause themselves in one attack.

Counter and dodge tanks are a very double edge sword type of Tank Jobs that can either make or break the Jobs. However, that is just my opinion on how risking these tank jobs can be in both designing and gameplay.

[Walfan]

I can see a type of debuff tank and magic barrier type tank but dodge and counter tank is a bit iffy if we look at current content of FF14.

I agree a dodge tank tank would be difficult but not impossible. Something like a guaranteed dodge spell could be interesting but would thread thinly on the line to a possible exploit.

Counter tank is actually far more fitting to SAM and far more interesting.
The job could be completely balanced around it, with something like two core moves : counter physical and counter magical on a low cooldown. SAM could be a less durable tank originally than the others who rewards quick thinking with a very active mitigation. A successful counter could reduce the damage of the attack by 30-50% and increase both the enmity and damage of your damaging moves.
Only issue is that he wouldn't really be good as an off-tank, further competing with DRK/PLD, but that can easily be resolved by making DRK a more desirable off-tank in the first place.

Honestly there's plenty they can come up with, a dps SAM wouldn't be any more original.

[ReplicaX]

snip

I agree to a point. However, still can't see it as a counter tank as far as appeal. Seems like a waste for SAM as a job imo.

This why I feel Red Mage is needed and more appealing as a Tank.
A magical Tank stands out compared to the current jobs in the role.

There are many possible directions they can take with it. Offense/Defense Magics (Hybrid of the current stance dancing), Debuffing.

Instead of just a traditional sword or rapier. They could use a "catalyst/device" to produce an aetheric weapon, which can have different enchantments depending on the situation.

[Alacran]

The same thing was said to justify DRK as a tank and it doesn't seem like it had any lasting impact. So, why would SAM be any different?

Unequivocally false, take a moment to look at the Tanking forums. The amount of people trying to get information specifically to try playing DRK it's self shows more interest was garnered up from the addition of a popular job to an unpopular role. The same can found on reddit forums aswell, there is no denying that DRK brought in more TANKS.

I should know as i was a DRG main before DRK's announcement. Once EU fanfest confirmed it's role i jumped on my WAR (already 50 from 1.0) and began Tanking in World of Darkness (feeling then since people then always fought over MT i could quietly OT) it wasn't long before i a new TANK was getting asked to MT for the raid, The pressure was intense, my only consolation was having run the raid so often that i had a rough idea of how i was supposed to set up the encounters.

Tanking is rough, there really is no way to "fix" it. Someone has to lead, someone has to set up the fight for everyone else to do their job, someone has to set the pace of the dungeon, and someone has to gauge attacks and know what CD to use, or to move (sacrifice positioning). Your going to get hell for it but that's why you get to look like the typical fantasy hero always in the vanguard.

The reason DPS want a sword job is to feel like this.

There is a reason good old Ramsey never use a sword throughout this whole scene and even in later portions of the same episode.

[Shippuu]

Ok, so he did say that. Can you direct me to the comments in august and november? Were the sources live letters specifically?

It was stated that at some point during the Three year anniversary 14 hour broadcast that Yoshida said the summer event hinted towards the number of jobs that were being added to the next expansion. I do not know when it was stated during the broadcast and that there isn't an official english translation for the whole thing, so that can be taken with a grain of salt.

After that, in a japanese interview released in November from gamewatch that was done after the NA fanfest, they asked if the silhouettes shown during the "New Jobs" slide indicated if there was only going to be two new jobs. Yoshida replied the two silhouettes were not indicative towards the number of jobs for the expansion.

These two things would lean towards suspecting 3 jobs again, as there's been no further or recent comments reiterating that 3 jobs would be too hard to develop again. Especially when stormblood supposedly has a larger budget, on top of not having a new race (freeing up a lot of resources that can be put towards job assets) it's easier to believe they'll stick with 3 jobs again, even if it's hard to do.

[Wolf_Heartnet]

It was stated that at some point during the Three year anniversary 14 hour broadcast that Yoshida said the summer event hinted towards the number of jobs that were being added to the next expansion. I do not know when it was stated during the broadcast and that there isn't an official english translation for the whole thing, so that can be taken with a grain of salt.

After that, in a japanese interview released in November from gamewatch that was done after the NA fanfest, they asked if the silhouettes shown during the "New Jobs" slide indicated if there was only going to be two new jobs. Yoshida replied the two silhouettes were not indicative towards the number of jobs for the expansion.

These two things would lean towards suspecting 3 jobs again, as there's been no further or recent comments reiterating that 3 jobs would be too hard to develop again. Especially when stormblood supposedly has a larger budget, on top of not having a new race (freeing up a lot of resources that can be put towards job assets) it's easier to believe they'll stick with 3 jobs again, even if it's hard to do.

Thanks, I only needed you to steer me in the right direction to find the info. I'll look around. Thanks again!

[Shippuu]

A successful counter could reduce the damage of the attack by 30-50% and increase both the enmity and damage of your damaging moves.

The key to making a counter based tank without the same pitfalls DRK suffers is to make sure not to tie offensive capabilities to their counterattacks. Have an active counterattack like you mention, but build the ability in a way such as this:

Enter a counterattack stance for 4 seconds, at the end of 4 seconds (or if struck with an attack before then) you release an attack for X amount of damage. Being attacked during this stance mitigates the damage by Y%. (Or perhaps provides a defensive buff for X amount of seconds if you take a hit etc.)

This way, they still do the damage or even enemy debuffing element even if they are OT'ing, but when main tanking there is additional reason to use the abilities as appropriately defensive things. This would avoid the issue DRK has where they lose damage and a strong debuff if they aren't actively tanking things.

[Shippuu]

This why I feel Red Mage is needed and more appealing as a Tank.
A magical Tank stands out compared to the current jobs in the role.

How does a magical tank stand out more? 2 of the 3 tanks we have are magic users. Paladin had numerous magical abilities including ones with actual cast bars even And half of Dark Knights abilities are magical themed in nature and appearance, on top of their major mechanic being managing an MP pool far more than any magic caster has to in the game.

To say a magic themed tank would be a breath of fresh air is just blatantly false.