@Naoki Yoshida-> Make Samurai a Tank class!

[CaedemSanguis]

SAM dps and RDM tank with heavy armor

[Shippuu]

Saying that glamour is not a valid excuse is DEFINITELY not a valid excuse. Especially since you do not even explain yourself regarding that. So that argument alone has been made automatically invalid.

It's not valid because the glamour system is still restricted by role/job. If you're a tank you can't glamour bard gear onto your stuff. You can't be a mage and glamour a full set of plate armor onto yourself. So the job's basic armor identity still plays an important role. Just because there's a number of universally glamour-able items such as swimsuits etc. does not invalidate that.

The reason for the 170 tank gear looking the way it is, is because in development for heavensward, their decision for the next tank came down to Dark Knight or Samurai. It wouldn't surprise me that they had already made gear ahead of time for the samurai.

And that's simply speculation. We don't know how far along they went with samurai in development and in terms of creating art assets.

And while Bard/Machinist has some sets that are similar to Red Mage it doesn't neccesarily make as much sense for a caster to be a dex class. Like i said, it makes more sense for it to be a healer because it could use white magic to heal and then go into cleric stance to use black magic. It just makes more sense.

It makes plenty of sense, Red mages cast multiple types of magics from different schools on top of weaving in swordplay. That takes a dexterous mind as well as body to perform. Dexterous doesn't apply to just physical feats after all, someone with a dexterous mind is considered clever, and mentally adroit. It's much like Ninja's, who use dex as their primary stat, yet the class has many forms of magical abilities it casts through dexterous hand movements.

White Magic also does not equal only healing magic. There are numerous White Magic spells that are enfeebling or protective without being purely healing. Poisona, Blindna, Invis, Silence, Hold, Confuse, Blink, Haste, Dispel. Even if you wanted to give a DPS role some kind of healing it can still be done on RDM, something like an instant cast medica on a longer cooldown would still align with support-like moves other DPS jobs have like Mantra etc.

If Red Mage was a healer it would spend most of it's time healing, and a little time casting black magic, and virtually zero time using the sword element that it's often tied to. DPS would allow it to use all of them (as well as tank, but that brings itemization issues).

[Wolf_Heartnet]

It's not valid because the glamour system is still restricted by role/job. If you're a tank you can't glamour bard gear onto your stuff. You can't be a mage and glamour a full set of plate armor onto yourself. So the job's basic armor identity still plays an important role. Just because there's a number of universally glamour-able items such as swimsuits etc. does not invalidate that.


And that's simply speculation. We don't know how far along they went with samurai in development and in terms of creating art assets.



It makes plenty of sense, Red mages cast multiple types of magics from different schools on top of weaving in swordplay. That takes a dexterous mind as well as body to perform. Dexterous doesn't apply to just physical feats after all, someone with a dexterous mind is considered clever, and mentally adroit. It's much like Ninja's, who use dex as their primary stat, yet the class has many forms of magical abilities it casts through dexterous hand movements.

White Magic also does not equal only healing magic. There are numerous White Magic spells that are enfeebling or protective without being purely healing. Poisona, Blindna, Invis, Silence, Hold, Confuse, Blink, Haste, Dispel. Even if you wanted to give a DPS role some kind of healing it can still be done on RDM, something like an instant cast medica on a longer cooldown would still align with support-like moves other DPS jobs have like Mantra etc.

If Red Mage was a healer it would spend most of it's time healing, and a little time casting black magic, and virtually zero time using the sword element that it's often tied to. DPS would allow it to use all of them (as well as tank, but that brings itemization issues).

Thanks for explaining with glamour but i still disagree. Even if you're a tank, you can glamour gear that can be worn by all that doesn't look like tank gear. In fact, you can be naked by glamouring the emperor gear. However, i can agree to disagree with you here.

For the 170 gear, that is speculation but there is also fact in that Samurai was close to becoming a tank in heavensward during development. But its true, theres no hard evidence that 170 was made because of Samurai.

Now, the way you describe Red Mage as a dps is a great argument. Best i've heard but when you talk about dextrous body and mind it sounds more like background lore or concepts that doesn't actually affect gameplay directly but i guess thats where both our arguments collide because i am thinking strictly from a gameplay perspective.

The key thing that i think about red mage is that they are going to have healing magic such as the iconic cure 1 and cure 2 along with lightning, fire 1, fire 2 and when thinking about it in a gameplay perspective... DPS simply cannot deliver heals because then they are losing out on dps in raids/hard-content. It would also sound like the job would be too powerful if the heals were so strong/effective that they can maintain high dps while healing. That would mean that MANY people would take groups of multiple red mages. To top it off it is called a mage.

If the Red Mage were not given any healing skills and just support magics like poison, blind, silence, haste, confuse, blink then what you got there is a Green Mage which is strictly a support magic caster. The way i see Red Mage is that it has to use White Mage skills and Black Mage skils. Also, whats to say they are actually going to use their sword/rapier? They can simply use it like a white/black mage uses their rod and just attack/heal from a range.

All that said, I like your argument. It is a good one. I however believe that it will still be a healer.

[Shippuu]

The key thing that i think about red mage is that they are going to have healing magic such as the iconic cure 1 and cure 2 along with lightning, fire 1, fire 2 and when thinking about it in a gameplay perspective... DPS simply cannot deliver heals because then they are losing out on dps in raids/hard-content. It would also sound like the job would be too powerful if the heals were so strong/effective that they can maintain high dps while healing. That would mean that MANY people would take groups of multiple red mages. To top it off it is called a mage.

I mean, we don't know for sure that they must have cure 1, 2, etc. and Fire 1, fire 2 etc. To fit the archetype they just need to have at least some spells/abilities that are in that vein of magic. They can cast a black magic fire spell but it can be called something different and doesn't have to be a carbon copy cast time Fire 1 from Black Mage. Similar to Ninja again, Katon is clearly a fire-based spell akin to Fire 2, but it's called Katon and has essentially a 30 second cooldown. They can have a white magic based healing spell that is functionally different than simply standing there casting spells, especially when you factor in Red Mage's iconic ability in Dual Cast. These things open up the possibility of giving a DPS Red Mage some support/healing utility if they chose to design it that way.

There are ways for DPS to provide heals without losing dps, in the form of instant cast off GCD abilities, which again makes sense for RDM to have given dualcast. Monk's (and other DPS) don't miss out on DPS when they cast Mantra, which a monk's increases healing done to everyone by 20%. So from a point of view that additional healing can be seen as provided by the monk. There's nothing stopping a DPS RDM from having an AoE clutch heal on a long cooldown they can throw out when the party needs it. The job wouldn't be OP because they shouldn't be a super high DPS job in the first place, they bring utility and support to the party, and as a result their damage is not top of the line, like BRD,MCH, NIN. This fits the fact they are supposed to be jack of all trades, master of none.

If the Red Mage were not given any healing skills and just support magics like poison, blind, silence, haste, confuse, blink then what you got there is a Green Mage which is strictly a support magic caster. The way i see Red Mage is that it has to use White Mage skills and Black Mage skils. Also, whats to say they are actually going to use their sword/rapier? They can simply use it like a white/black mage uses their rod and just attack/heal from a range.

We fundamentally disagree then on what a Red Mage should entail, you seem to want them to cast specific white mage skills and black mage skills, whereas I see them being able to take a different approach in as long as they incorporate elements of white magic and black magic along with swordplay. To me it doesn't have to be specifically Cure 1's, and Fire 2's thrown about, but some kind of white magic and black magic that would fit in the world's lore. I think having them be backline casters with their swords just for show would be a pretty big waste of an opportunity to do something flashy with them.

All that said, I like your argument. It is a good one. I however believe that it will still be a healer.

We shall find out in less than a week's time then!

[Wolf_Heartnet]

I mean, we don't know for sure that they must have cure 1, 2, etc. and Fire 1, fire 2 etc. To fit the archetype they just need to have at least some spells/abilities that are in that vein of magic. They can cast a black magic fire spell but it can be called something different and doesn't have to be a carbon copy cast time Fire 1 from Black Mage. Similar to Ninja again, Katon is clearly a fire-based spell akin to Fire 2, but it's called Katon and has essentially a 30 second cooldown. They can have a white magic based healing spell that is functionally different than simply standing there casting spells, especially when you factor in Red Mage's iconic ability in Dual Cast. These things open up the possibility of giving a DPS Red Mage some support/healing utility if they chose to design it that way.

There are ways for DPS to provide heals without losing dps, in the form of instant cast off GCD abilities, which again makes sense for RDM to have given dualcast. Monk's (and other DPS) don't miss out on DPS when they cast Mantra, which a monk's increases healing done to everyone by 20%. So from a point of view that additional healing can be seen as provided by the monk. There's nothing stopping a DPS RDM from having an AoE clutch heal on a long cooldown they can throw out when the party needs it. The job wouldn't be OP because they shouldn't be a super high DPS job in the first place, they bring utility and support to the party, and as a result their damage is not top of the line, like BRD,MCH, NIN. This fits the fact they are supposed to be jack of all trades, master of none.



We fundamentally disagree then on what a Red Mage should entail, you seem to want them to cast specific white mage skills and black mage skills, whereas I see them being able to take a different approach in as long as they incorporate elements of white magic and black magic along with swordplay. To me it doesn't have to be specifically Cure 1's, and Fire 2's thrown about, but some kind of white magic and black magic that would fit in the world's lore. I think having them be backline casters with their swords just for show would be a pretty big waste of an opportunity to do something flashy with them.


We shall find out in less than a week's time then!

You bring up a good point with dual cast. If they do put that into their kit, it can make for some unique gameplay.I completely forgot about that skill!!
After this post you made, u fully convinced me that they can viably be a dps. There are some concerns on whether they can be do some viable healing. However, i still believe regardless that they will be a caster dps. I still lean to the belief that they will be healer but your argument pretty much opens up them becoming a dps for me.

Well done, Shippuu.

[LadyKairi]

1) I'm not seeing three silhouettes there. Maybe it could be just a placeholder, or maybe devs are placing quality over quantity, who knows....

I watched the stream, and if I remember correctly, Yoshi said something about "multiple jobs". Who's to say we won't get one of each battle role, as well as something for those who enjoy DoL/DoH? By what I've heard, the budget is far bigger for SB than they had for HW, and they may have gotten more members to their team. I could be wrong, but I'm holding hope that everyone will be able to get a new shiny to play with.

[Madepossible]

If this would be Samurai, it just should be a Tank class!
https://imgur.com/D4kJRvU

[shao32]

If this would be Samurai, it just should be a Tank class!
https://imgur.com/D4kJRvU

That Guy is zenos yae valgus, the garlean ruler of ala migho and son of the actual emperor but yeah he looks like he use a katana

[Madepossible]

That Guy is zenos yae valgus, the garlean ruler of ala migho and son of the actual emperor but yeah he looks like he use a katana

Shao I think we actually might get Samurai as a tank as it blends in so well.
1. Second high damage off tank makes the balance between the 4 tanks complete:
Paladin -> the ultimate defensive tank.
Dark Knight -> also a good main tank, blood weapon can be used with grit off from now and then but Na/EU basically made PLD and DRK the main tanks.
Warrior -> high damaging off tank with crazy damage compared to the two other tanks.
Samurai -> high damaging off tank just like Warrior.
So that sums it up: 2 Main tanks and 2 Off tanks: balance.
I also believe it will be like this: Samurai will be the new tank, Red Mage will be the new DPS job and we might get a 4th Healer.

[jameseoakes]

Shao I think we actually might get Samurai as a tank as it blends in so well.
1. Second high damage off tank makes the balance between the 4 tanks complete:
Paladin -> the ultimate defensive tank.
Dark Knight -> also a good main tank, blood weapon can be used with grit off from now and then but Na/EU basically made PLD and DRK the main tanks.
Warrior -> high damaging off tank with crazy damage compared to the two other tanks.
Samurai -> high damaging off tank just like Warrior.
So that sums it up: 2 Main tanks and 2 Off tanks: balance.
I also believe it will be like this: Samurai will be the new tank, Red Mage will be the new DPS job and we might get a 4th Healer.

Or more likely we'll just see DRK and PLD marginalised in favour of higher DPS tanks by the community like we saw with PLD in 3.0/3.1