Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0

[Ultimatecalibur]

I have read what you said and I agree with you. 70% increase can't be the result of proper stance dancing alone.

Sorry about being defensive. To many dislike when flaws in their reasoning are pointed out and I jump at your reply without fully reading it.

What could be interesting is doing two runs with the same team, one where the tank stays in tank stance, and one where he stance dances. We'll see how much damage he takes, how much DPS he does, and how much DPS the healer loses as a tradeoff.

Yeah that would be the best way to see the actual difference in DpS and DTpS.

[Brian_]

So I guess Castle Meridianum and Praetorum are raids, then...and since T5, T9, T13, A4, A8 and A12 are only arena fights against one boss, every trial could be called a raid, too...

Yea, they're raids. And, trials are trials. At the end-game, Both are 8 man content. Just because a raid isn't savage difficulty doesn't mean it's not a raid.

As convenient as you ignoring how many time he said that it was the team choices

Except he explicitly said that it's not a choice for early prog. You tried to argue that healer ACC was a "vision raiders try to enforce." Yoshida flat out says it wasn't raiders that made ACC mandatory, it was the devs by tuning content to require healer DPS in early prog. When the choice is between clearing the content and not clearing the content, it's not a choice.

Yeah, of course it started with that...

Yesterday, I ended with a PLD main tank that only spammed RoH throughout all of A11...it was really sad. But, now, let's imagine something. His WS rotation was extremely bad, but we still won the fight. Do you think he learned anything from that ?
Now, if the WS rotation was part of your tanking capabilities (i.e, generating enough enmity and mitigating damage), he would have died...and we would probably have lost.

Yes, it's a pain to lose a fight, but when it comes to the playerbase, it's better to lose one fight because the MT tank can't be carried that letting bad tanks clear even that kind of content.

Clear as the sky on a cloudless day.

On another topic, let's suppose you have a party with four BLM, that still think transposing is a way of switching between Fire and Ice, and that Enochian is useless. Even in normal raid, such a team wouldn't be able to win the fight with such a low DPS. Bad tanks shouldn't have that kind of free pass.

No, I think in NM, 2 elite tanks and 2 elite healers could still carry 4 DPS doing horrendous DPS. Those 4 could comfortably combine for 4k+ DPS. But, that's really beside the point since as other people have pointed out, equating 4 DPS to 1 tank is a false equivalency to begin with.

Really, you have this strange elitism and arrogance. On one hand, you criticize people good enough at this game to clear the hardest content as blind when we use facts and logic to prove you have your head stuck up your butt. On the other hand, you want to prevent huge swaths of players from experiencing an NM raid because they aren't up to your standards.

Casuals are the majority and they fuel this game. They pay the same sub anyone else does and they deserve to have proportionate representation in content creation.

As for the player I mentioned, you've actually acknowledged that it was really bad and that PvE progression model is bad...

...then the next post, suddenly, the difficulty disbtribution is fine ? Since you like your precise naming, Alex Normal is a raid it should teach you how to raid. And spamming RoH is a very bad way to play PLD at lvl 60. It's absurd to wait for Alex Savage to teach such a basic concept.

I never said the difficulty distribution was fine. I said it was better than the garbage you are proposing. If you want to teach someone to raid, then give them a progressive raiding pathway. Alex NM is fine. It's good that more people can experience the content and there needs to be easy 8-man content.

The problem is the lack of new mid-level 8-man content like Sophia EX (though A9S and A10S are probably easy enough to be considered mid-level content) and the lack of a proper incentive to revisit old 8-man content like Sephirot and Nidhogg EX which are probably still hard enough to be considered mid-level content for a lot of people. The problem is not that dungeons don't filter into raid progression. If someone wants to raid, then let them raid and learn through raiding.

[Ultimatecalibur]

I am pointing this out because primarily this is what most of the team deal with, comparing to the better parse ofc. Double Scrapline is not meant to be soaked, has nothing to do with DTPS. You can't bunch fight familiarity with Astro buffs because that's part of the fight and not because you decide to bring AST that your execution becomes great.

I agree that this comparison is flawed by its nature due to the gear upgrades and growth as a team, I do not have the sufficient data to actually compare parses with me being the only variance, because I do need to parse more runs to get a reliable comparison (and my team probably isn't keen to keep running the same fight just because I want to gather data). However a point was brought to the table that optimized runs is basically on how skilled you are AND how good is your team to plan out the fights as a group, even to the smallest things like movements, defensive CDs run down to the healers, etc.

My point is that your comparison does not work because you inflated the compared numbers. A 70% gain in damage dealt for a 17% increase in damage taken says something completely different than a 25% increase in damage dealt for a 25% increase in damage taken.

Astrologian, Ninjas, Machinists and (to a limited extent) Dragoons all can warp fflog parses as they can increase the dps of other members of the party based on their use of buffs. Most of the top parses in the fflogs have been boosted by Astrologians feeding Balances to players (not saying they did in yours as all Balances appear to be Balance + Spreads effecting all members). Due to this when comparing fflogs you actually need to look at the class compositions involved. The Dark Knight in a War/Drk/Whm/Sch/Mnk/Drg/Brd/Blm comp is going to have different numbers than the Dark Knight in a War/Drk/Ast/Whm/DrG/Nin/Mch/Smn comp due to the dps boosts from the other party members even if they did the exact same things and the server feed them the exact same random numbers.

You need two identical comps for the numbers to be mostly comparable and to also check and see how "lucky" each group got.

[LilLemay]

No, I think in NM, 2 elite tanks and 2 elite healers could still carry 4 DPS doing horrendous DPS. Those 4 could comfortably combine for 4k+ DPS. But, that's really beside the point since as other people have pointed out, equating 4 DPS to 1 tank is a false equivalency to begin with.

This is infact entirely possible, I did regular a12 with three of my static member (ot, and my two healers) and we alone accounted for about 65% of the dps

[Lyth]

You need two identical comps for the numbers to be mostly comparable and to also check and see how "lucky" each group got.

You don't need to compare two different attempts to understand the defensive trade-off. You just need one. The vast majority of the damage in A9S comes from autos, with intermittent damage spikes from Scrap cleaves.

Autos hit for about 6k without Grit. You would have mitigated about 1.2k by being in Grit. The numbers are actually quite similar between the two runs if you calculate what Grit's contribution is in each case. The big difference between the runs is the number of autos received: 63 in the faster run, and 95 in the slower one.

It's a similar story for Scrap: you take 8k without Grit, and mitigate 2k by being in Grit. The difference again is that the faster attempt only sees half the number of cleaves as the slow one. It's worth noting that the upper bound damage for Scrap is about 10k without Grit, which is important for both you and your healer to gauge what the minimum safe threshold is before intervening.

I'm not really sure where you got the idea of the "probable"(?) soaked Double Scrapline from. You can directly check.

Damage Taken Per Second is not particularly useful here. Damage occurs at very discrete intervals, as does healing. The difference in damage taken with or without Grit is only relevant if it forces an additional heal or if it results in a death that could not have otherwise occurred. A 2k difference gets swept up in a Regen tick, and we're looking at max HP in the 32-34k range.

Turning off Grit is more than a 25% dps increase for a couple reasons. First, you have access to BW, which influences both CPM and available MP, both of which directly translate into dps. Second, as the raid encounter time drops, you spend more time in your opening burst. Even if you could keep all other external factors constant (i.e. party comp, buff/debuff uptime, proc and crit rates for all players), this second point is something that you can't control for. Clearing more efficiently will "inflate" your dps significantly. And even if it was only a 25% boost ("only" being more powerful than a permanent RS or Balance): why give yourself a dps penalty needlessly?

[Reynhart]

The big difference between the runs is the number of autos received: 63 in the faster run, and 95 in the slower one.
[...]
The difference again is that the faster attempt only sees half the number of cleaves as the slow one.

But you can't realistically put that only on the tank stance dancing. The whole party did better, wether it's from experience, gear or composition, and they all contributed to the faster kill.

That's why a test should be made within two runs of the same team where the only (player-induced) variable is "stance dancing or not".
If you end with 63 autos in the fastest run and 70 in the slowest, it's not that big. (Numbers only here as an example)

And even if it was only a 25% boost ("only" being more powerful than a permanent RS or Balance): why give yourself a dps penalty needlessly?

The point is not really why you should give yourself a penalty, but instead "Why you should put that much pressure on DPS optimization for tanks if the difference is not that important ?" Unless of course, you're doing a Savage race...

[Lyth]

Yes, the difference isn't entirely due to tanking out of Grit. But realistically, you can't really construct the sort of experiment that you're suggesting, because of the reasons that I outlined above. Nor do you need to, to understand the benefits.

The point is not really why you should give yourself a penalty

Actually, that was pretty much exactly my point.

[Reynhart]

Actually, that was pretty much exactly my point.

I wasn't talking about your point...but the point of putting that much emphasis on tank DPS...

Yes, the difference isn't entirely due to tanking out of Grit. But realistically, you can't really construct the sort of experiment that you're suggesting, because of the reasons that I outlined above. Nor do you need to, to understand the benefits.

We understand the benefit, but some of us feel that its importance really went through the roof. And in this game, where each time a suggestion is made, people always tend to extrapolate on how terribly it could break the game, it would be a good thing to properly judge the scale of a new "strat".

That was the same wth the Novus weapon where people were easy to spit on every relic that wasn't "Det/Crit", when in the end, even having full parry didn't change your numbers much...while costing waaaaaay less.

Is it really worth it, as a mentality, to work twice as hard for only a small performance increase ? And I'm not talking about clearly lacking skill in the most basic rotation like those frequently referenced "500 DPS tank"...

[Instrumentality]

Is it really worth it, as a mentality, to work twice as hard for only a small performance increase ?

Unequivocally yes.

[Reynhart]

Unequivocally yes.

For you...
In the end, the impact you have is far smaller than the effort you agreed to make.