Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0

[Reynhart]

Except in this game, the terms raid and dungeon are used to differentiate between 8 man content and 4 man content.

So I guess Castle Meridianum and Praetorum are raids, then...and since T5, T9, T13, A4, A8 and A12 are only arena fights against one boss, every trial could be called a raid, too...

No, I would still use my CDs as there is nothing else to use them on for one CD cycle. That's what I mean when I say you have a surplus of mitigation. Saving it wouldn't do anything but be a complete waste. I know this because I push my DPS and doing so requires that I know exactly when I will have my CDs.

So, basically, it wouldn't change how you'd spend your CD...only that you take more damage, which suddenly becomes the responsibility of your healer.

Regardless of if you're in tank stance or not, they can't afford to not top you off because the TB hits hard and hits often. Even if it takes them another cast of healing, they're not losing the opportunity to Cleric Stance and DPS.

So, no combination of tank mitigation/healer healing power can actually reduce the required number of cast ?

Yoshida just flat out said that it was by their design that ACC works the way it does. How is that a player driven meta? He flat out says that they tuned content so early clear groups have no choice but to stack ACC to push DPS. It's convenient you just completely deleted that part, huh?

As convenient as you ignoring how many time he said that it was the team choices

My god... LOL. You do realize that you began this argument by saying that tanks needed to change because some random PLD got carried through A11N while only spamming RoH and you didn't think it was right the content didn't have a hard tank check to gate him until he learned how to play by your standards.

Yeah, of course it started with that...

Contrary to other tanks, this one wouldn't have a DPS mode, but instead have two tank stances: Physical Shield and Magical Shield (Yes, these names arent't very sexy, but at least, they're obvious).

As for solo tanking, yes, it's a viable answer. Consider a fight were tankbusters appears very often. With a "usual" two tanks setup, you'd have to swap during the fight to let CD timers refresh. With this tank, you wouldn't need to. It's a different strat for a different job, but it doesn't prevent "any tanks setup to work on any content". For example, even if the Mystic Knight could solo tank the current Sophia EX, it wouldn't make other tanks suddenly unable to clear it in a usual setup.

The question is still "Why ?". Why do all tanks automatically have to follow the exact same meta ?

No. In my vision, there is room for a viable turtle approach alongside a more aggressive tanking. Since we have three tanks, it wouldn't be that difficult to target a mixed tank playerbase.

As for the player I mentioned, you've actually acknowledged that it was really bad and that PvE progression model is bad...

I'm not fine with it. I've voiced my criticism of SE's PvE progression model in more relevant topics.

...then the next post, suddenly, the difficulty disbtribution is fine ? Since you like your precise naming, Alex Normal is a raid it should teach you how to raid. And spamming RoH is a very bad way to play PLD at lvl 60. It's absurd to wait for Alex Savage to teach such a basic concept.

On another topic, let's suppose you have a party with four BLM, that still think transposing is a way of switching between Fire and Ice, and that Enochian is useless. Even in normal raid, such a team wouldn't be able to win the fight with such a low DPS. Bad tanks shouldn't have that kind of free pass.

[DaulBan]

...then the next post, suddenly, the difficulty disbtribution is fine ? Since you like your precise naming, Alex Normal is a raid it should teach you how to raid. And spamming RoH is a very bad way to play PLD at lvl 60. It's absurd to wait for Alex Savage to teach such a basic concept.

On another topic, let's suppose you have a party with four BLM, that still think transposing is a way of switching between Fire and Ice, and that Enochian is useless. Even in normal raid, such a team wouldn't be able to win the fight with such a low DPS. Bad tanks shouldn't have that kind of free pass.

I think the issue with Alex Normal not teaching people how to raid is less to do with the fact that it's not punishing enough, so much as the fact that there isn't enough content to spread the difficulty curve though.


All of Alexander (Gordias, Midas, Creator) needs to be clearable by anyone on the 'Normal Level'. It's the new base content, slightly more tricky than a Dungeon but easily clearable. It's what anyone and their grandma can do and it's designed that way because it gives us more to do than roulettes.

That design choice makes sense because of how few people actually Raid, it probably makes much more sense to SE to have the four current floors be easy and just a taste of the harder 8-man content but still have it be pretty easy than to create some sort of wall. To learn, you have to fail, and failing is frustrating. Failing with friends is frustrating, failing with pugs even more. To keep people happy they need the Alex content to be easy...

Unfortunately, the only other avenue they have for teaching people savage are EX Primals. Sophia is probably the best primal to learn as a tank right now, to be honest. Regular tank busters, tank swaps that are punishing but possible to live through, with a fairly minimal HP floor to survive with minimal mitigation. If they had more content available they might be able to do as you say and create a better slope to Savage but to be honest I'd rather have the current system in place with more to do as a casual than the old Coil system of Dungeons or the difficult raids.

[Reynhart]

I think the issue with Alex Normal not teaching people how to raid is less to do with the fact that it's not punishing enough, so much as the fact that there isn't enough content to spread the difficulty curve though.

But unless they create more content (Which they kind of hinted to at Fanfest, and that would probably displease hardcore raiders...), it means building the learning curve throughout dungeons and primals.

All of Alexander (Gordias, Midas, Creator) needs to be clearable by anyone on the 'Normal Level'.

There's "anyone" and "anyone". The less you'll ask to your players, the less they'll do and the less they'll try harder content...requiring a slight effort is not inconceivable.

That design choice makes sense because of how few people actually Raid

But being able to clear Alex Normal with almost no effort doesn't prepare you to go into Savage.

Sophia is probably the best primal to learn as a tank right now, to be honest. Regular tank busters, tank swaps that are punishing but possible to live through, with a fairly minimal HP floor to survive with minimal mitigation.

Yes, Sophia EX is fun, with a bit of RNG, even though the RNG is mostly dependent of what you skip.

[Brian_]

So I guess Castle Meridianum and Praetorum are raids, then...and since T5, T9, T13, A4, A8 and A12 are only arena fights against one boss, every trial could be called a raid, too...

Yea, they're raids. And, trials are trials. At the end-game, Both are 8 man content. Just because a raid isn't savage difficulty doesn't mean it's not a raid.

As convenient as you ignoring how many time he said that it was the team choices

Except he explicitly said that it's not a choice for early prog. You tried to argue that healer ACC was a "vision raiders try to enforce." Yoshida flat out says it wasn't raiders that made ACC mandatory, it was the devs by tuning content to require healer DPS in early prog. When the choice is between clearing the content and not clearing the content, it's not a choice.

Yeah, of course it started with that...

Yesterday, I ended with a PLD main tank that only spammed RoH throughout all of A11...it was really sad. But, now, let's imagine something. His WS rotation was extremely bad, but we still won the fight. Do you think he learned anything from that ?
Now, if the WS rotation was part of your tanking capabilities (i.e, generating enough enmity and mitigating damage), he would have died...and we would probably have lost.

Yes, it's a pain to lose a fight, but when it comes to the playerbase, it's better to lose one fight because the MT tank can't be carried that letting bad tanks clear even that kind of content.

Clear as the sky on a cloudless day.

On another topic, let's suppose you have a party with four BLM, that still think transposing is a way of switching between Fire and Ice, and that Enochian is useless. Even in normal raid, such a team wouldn't be able to win the fight with such a low DPS. Bad tanks shouldn't have that kind of free pass.

No, I think in NM, 2 elite tanks and 2 elite healers could still carry 4 DPS doing horrendous DPS. Those 4 could comfortably combine for 4k+ DPS. But, that's really beside the point since as other people have pointed out, equating 4 DPS to 1 tank is a false equivalency to begin with.

Really, you have this strange elitism and arrogance. On one hand, you criticize people good enough at this game to clear the hardest content as blind when we use facts and logic to prove you have your head stuck up your butt. On the other hand, you want to prevent huge swaths of players from experiencing an NM raid because they aren't up to your standards.

Casuals are the majority and they fuel this game. They pay the same sub anyone else does and they deserve to have proportionate representation in content creation.

As for the player I mentioned, you've actually acknowledged that it was really bad and that PvE progression model is bad...

...then the next post, suddenly, the difficulty disbtribution is fine ? Since you like your precise naming, Alex Normal is a raid it should teach you how to raid. And spamming RoH is a very bad way to play PLD at lvl 60. It's absurd to wait for Alex Savage to teach such a basic concept.

I never said the difficulty distribution was fine. I said it was better than the garbage you are proposing. If you want to teach someone to raid, then give them a progressive raiding pathway. Alex NM is fine. It's good that more people can experience the content and there needs to be easy 8-man content.

The problem is the lack of new mid-level 8-man content like Sophia EX (though A9S and A10S are probably easy enough to be considered mid-level content) and the lack of a proper incentive to revisit old 8-man content like Sephirot and Nidhogg EX which are probably still hard enough to be considered mid-level content for a lot of people. The problem is not that dungeons don't filter into raid progression. If someone wants to raid, then let them raid and learn through raiding.

[LilLemay]

No, I think in NM, 2 elite tanks and 2 elite healers could still carry 4 DPS doing horrendous DPS. Those 4 could comfortably combine for 4k+ DPS. But, that's really beside the point since as other people have pointed out, equating 4 DPS to 1 tank is a false equivalency to begin with.

This is infact entirely possible, I did regular a12 with three of my static member (ot, and my two healers) and we alone accounted for about 65% of the dps