Dismantle the Holy Trinity

[Leogun]

But you're not forced to DPS. A healer can choose to DPS or not. A tank can MT or DPS as OT. It's a choice.
Instead of breaking all the roles, why not just add a fourth role and call it support?

Not a bad proposition and one requested before on the forums.

However, I suggest another alternative: the fourth role becomes Control.

Support, IMO, is just an extension of healing. Using abilities to recover resources should be something relegated by ones self, i.e. you shouldn't need or want to add "support" to a group composition just to give TP to 1 person that might run out of it during a fight. As is, we already have medication that could, to an extent, completely fill that combat role. So how about some other uses for our limited control? How about adding more to the role to better utilize control within boss battles?

And if you do things right, it may diversify possible team compositions. Like you may not need a tank if you have a healer, 2 controllers and a dps or with proper coordination, 2 healers, 1 controller and a dps or with proper cooldown management, 2 controllers, 1 tank and dps. The idea being, if each role was truly as capable and important compared to each other, then success should be possible with composition appropriate tactics. Some compositions would definitely require more coordination than the standard but not teeth-pullingly so.

[Ahrniel]

Yes I did say "or shut down" after two choices. Fix the game with the holy trinity, scrap the holy trinity, or shut down.

You just told me. The Holy Trinity is in the core. If they don't fix the Holy Trinity, they don't fix the game, if they don't fix the game, why even bother keeping it on?
But of course that is all a hyperbole. Like the devs would even allow to not fix things. Stormblood is coming for a reason, and they plan on changing things. And they seem to want to keep the Trinity, even going to the extent of, perhaps, enhancing them, by creating Cross-Role skills.

Good! That means they will try to FIX the Holy Trinity, but we gotta see what is gonna happen. It could not work, that is why I suggested something else just in case, I thought It was interesting and that perhaps I nailed some good points. God I was wrong.

To think this was a mine field of salty proportions I could never predict.

I never said this game could die for not doing as I suggested, I said it could die for not fixing anything. You and Ashelia went full scarecrow on that and kept pouding on that strawman, and you are still doing it. So if you are still doing after all I've explained, then yes, you are messed up and unreasonable.

[dejiko_san]

Yes I did say "or shut down" after two choices. Fix the game with the holy trinity, scrap the holy trinity, or shut down.

You just told me. The Holy Trinity is in the core. If they don't fix the Holy Trinity, they don't fix the game, if they don't fix the game, why even bother keeping it on?

The fact that you want to shut down a whole game just because it doesn't fit YOUR mold is the reason people are calling you out.

"If they don't fix the Holy Trinity, they don't fix the game, if they don't fix the game, why even bother keeping it on?"

Sure they can improve things but the game's state is nowhere as dire as you put it. Once again, people are simply saying they don't agree with you. It's not a personal attack on you, simply your suggestion which many do not agree with.

[Ahrniel]

The fact that you want to shut down a whole game just because it doesn't fit YOUR mold is the reason people are calling you out.

I see, you want some idea of where I'm coming from?

Here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...arty-instances
Here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...re-not-healers
Here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ty-as-a-healer
Here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ew-perspective.

I saw problems with the game. Pointed them in the OP and suggested some solutions, then I wanted some feedback. People just rebutted with:

"Sounds like you just want to play an entirely different game."
"this is heresy at the highest level"
"why SE would want to spend millions of dollars to rebuild the game, and why millions of players would want to get used to a new style of playing, other than because you, personally, don't like the design."
"Please tell me ur trolling"
"Sorry, but I gotta agree with others, this is heresy."
"Under your proposed solution the exact same thing would happen just without the labels."

Then we have this proper response here:

What SE designs and how the playerbase uses it are NOT the same.
SE could add a new high potency heal skill to all healers and the PLAYERS would be finding ways to use that heal to push higher DPS numbers. Do you honestly believe that everything SE designs around is everyone being a DPS and tanking and healing doesn't exist, or rather, is unnecessary?
A9-12S disagrees with you. Sophia EX disagrees with you. even EX roulette disagrees with you. SE has been actively addressing the DPS "problem" for a while since Gordias kinda fell on it's face with the DPS checks. patch after patch, they keep moving away from DPS and more towards mechanics. How in the hell do you get the idea SE is designing for DPS? because horizontal progression inflates numbers?

Even without that, the Trinity is the FOUNDATION of a game, what it's built on. A battle system and the roles within it are NOT. To change the trinity would be creating an entirely different game from the ground up. That's not an "expansion". that's not "an update". What you propose is actually on a LARGER scale than what happened to 1.0 with ARR.
This change wouldn't be Stromblood, it would be FFXIV-2. and we ALL know how well SE handles their "-2's"

I didn't agree that anything was being solved, and that didn't seem to be anything to bother with, so I answered with this:

Then do the Holy Trinity right.
If you can't do it right, do something else, if you can't do something else, shut down the game.

Because I still think it is wrong. Instead of pointing out: "No, the Trinity is still fine, because of reasons!"

You focused on shut down the game, and you tied a wrong conditional to it, the one that "If it wasn't done my way, it should be shut down".

This is a lie, a strawman, with which people continued to use to throw stones at the, as previously pointed, "Heretic".

And here we are. Nothing productive done, just a bunch of drama. Is this all? Are you entertained? Did you have your daily dose of salt and drama? Is this all you needed to bash me for? Is this all you require to gank on me, strawman and lie? Spare me your misery.

All you had to do is tell me why the Trinity is just fine as it is, but no, I mean, easy target appeared right, lets just destroy someone in the forums today.
Thank you very much for all your responses, some were good, some were... well, and worry not, I will not take this as what this community actually is, I'm no beginner, I've had some good times in these forums. But I'm just tired of this thread. Such a waste. You can go now, the show is over, I'm done with ya.

[whiskeybravo]

And the Holy Trinity works, when your Healers and Tanks don't have DPS stances. If I were to compare to WoW back in WotLK as a Restoration Druid I had a single target low damage spell called Wrath and a DoT called Moonfire. My stats were the equivalent of full Mind/Piety and almost no Intelligence in FF14. My damage was terrible, and I had no Cleric Stance. My allies took a lot of damage so I had plenty to heal, and my healing kit was quite diverse from early on. I was a full time healer with no regrets.

FF14 isn't designed like that. Tanks not having to put effort on tanking, Healers not having to put effort on healing, and having plenty of time to switch into DPS stance is how the game designed. But they can't design the classes fully because "They are still Tanks and Healers anyway, shouldn't do a good job like DPS do, because if they do DPS will be useless anyway." They can't get in a stable position with the current design, so I say scrap DDs and embrace DPS as everyone's role. Use the opportunity to polish that Bard's garbage songs and stop being shy in giving utility to jobs that already have it, but don't have more because they just happen to be DPS.

See, I never played WoW, or any other MMORPGs for that matter. I mainly got into this game because it was Final Fantasy, not because it was an MMO, so I don't really have a base of comparison for how other games do it.

So it sounds like, and this is just my interpretation of your opinion, a true "holy trinity" would have something like: tanks that deal less damage, with their main struggle being aggro generation and survival. Healers with less offensive ability, only there for healing/otherwise supporting the group during combat, and I guess dps just deal damage/handle mechanics? (not sure?). And the current problem, as you see it, is that there is too much cross-over between the roles which is causing design problems/job imbalance/community unrest. Does that sound about right?

The only additional things I can think to comment on is that tanks did actually use to struggle a bit to maintain aggro, their enmity generation has been buffed several times since ARR launched, so that is probably why aggro generation has been a joke for the last year or so at least. And healers didn't use to dps in raids due to the accuracy required. At some point, can't remember exactly when, second or third coil I think, is when they buffed healer gear to include accuracy, and that's when healer dps became relatively common/expected at end game.

[Keramory]

Keep in mind 1.0 tried to break away from the trinity and it fell flat on its face.

Why?

People want the trinity. People flock to it. People make whatever the system is into the trinity anyway. Why? Because it's one of the most effective in battles.


I will say this game doesn't have a real healer class. They're just supports who focus on healing.

[Warghoul570]

See I knew he was a heretic.. drops mic and struts off

[magnanimousCynic]

I see, you want some idea of where I'm coming from?

Here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...arty-instances.

Just so you know, Platorepublic has been spouting the nonsense idea of healers doing zero dps for a while now. I can say with reasonable belief that he's a dedicated troll for this idea and just wants to make the healers who like to dps angry. I wouldn't cite him to help your argument for why the holy trinity is "bad" and needs to be destroyed.

[Mejingjard]

I don't see where the trinity in FF XIV is messed up. Tanks do have tools to tank, Healers have tools to heal, and DPS have tools to deal damage.
An average player uses thoses tools and does his job fine, a great player will go beyond and push himself foward to contribute to the whole group even more.
And bad players will still be bad no matter what option you gave them.

When as a tank I do more dps than an equally geared damage dealer, the problem is not a broken trinity or tanks that sould not dps. The problem is dps having no clue at what they are doing.

It is always good to have idea and suggestions, but here you wants to rewamp a thing that works perfectly fine and has a lot of room for player's skills improvement.
The thing that is lacking is challenge high enough to push us to where we need to really use our roles. I don't see the point for a healer to stand doing nothing while the tank is taking close to no damage for exemple.

[Fluffernuff]

/sigh

Since now I'm being quoted and still called out, despite not actually having anything to do with these "allegations", we'll go back to my original point.

You know what that post was? a statement. It wasn't a question. It was not directed at an individual. It was not "salty". I've said it before in my posts. I am against radical changes based on personal or limited knowledge. It was a statement to separate SE from the players. Why did I make this statement? because on at least 2 occasions, you blamed SE for the "fault" of players' actions. I stated that SE has been pushing against the idea for some time now- and though they have failed, that does not mean they have not tried.

I then went into how your ideas were, effectively, chaging a fundamental design of the game- and in being a core foundation, things would not and could not be so easily changed. And assuming said changes DID happen, it would a different game entirely. Not a simple update. Not an expansion. it would be a different GAME.

To this response, I was met with what amounted to "its broken and needs to be fixed, and if it can't be fixed, it needs to be shut down". This is a rather extreme and honestly very petty reaction which did not even address what I even posted. Finding out later that im being quoted on this as "The Trinity is fine because reasons" tells me you either did not understand, chose not to understand, or outright ignored the post entirely. What does that even mean, though? I believe my "reasons" were quite clear, and even THEN, I never said it was fine. I simply could not agree with the base reasoning for your idea- that its all SE's fault and they made some flawed system no one agrees with. I still think this is wrong, as you've not said anything to me that isn't directed at shutting me down since my original post.

You do not need to agree with my stance, as I have not agreed to yours, but don't interpret that as "salty" or me "trying to force you out". Because Frankly, I have been quite hospitable in this discussion.

By all means, if ANYONE on this thread can please quote me specifically where I was even remotely hostile in this thread, I would appreciate it. All I can think of was when I was being snarky. once. Because I was so blatantly dismissed. but beyond that, please. I'd like to know where these allegations are coming from from an unbiased source.