Dismantle the Holy Trinity

[ManuelBravo]

FF14 actually have a very clear distinction between DPS, Healers, and Tanks - much more rigidly enforced than in most other MMOs I have played.
DPS don't have an easier job - not if they are doing it right. It is just that when a healer or tank does a bad job it is much more obvious than when a DPS does a bad job.

The only times when tanks or healers need to do substantial damage is when the DPS aren't doing their job properly.

Correct It's all on how other player gauge DPS and Tanks. While in a perfect world we could all get along FFXIV has taken into account the sad reality. Player's " unique " perspective of jobs.

[Leigaon]

I will say it's an interesting idea. The fact that it allows for users to play jobs as they see fit in a way. The warriors can come in, those who want to damage deal can or those who want to be a tank can. I do think of balancing. Which do you think will be more difficult to adjust, say 4.0 comes out and White Mage gets En-light that is like bloodbath but for the party.

That enhances and heals. Instead of them focusing on SCH / AST. They now have the others, and now have more jobs to make unique in a certain way. Maybe that's a bad example. How about something like Slow to WHM. What would you see the other jobs getting in support role? Would each job focus strictly on one set / element of enfeebles? Or would we make it universal, and give everyone slow?

I think it's an interesting idea worth exploring, and S.E. is afraid of branching jobs out due to the players. That's another thing, if everyone is jammed into DPS / TANK or Support / Healing, how long do you see things being diverse until we're back to where we are now, where everyone essentially does everything. Like you said, everyone can do same damage if they're in the stance.

This could also run into fights where people will post a video saying "We beat this with 5 Supporters and 1 Fighter", now party finder will restrict to certain jobs. This does happen just will expand on the problem possibly already

On another note, haha nothing you or anyone can patch, I can see 24-man raids ..all those Fighters and 10 min waiting for someone to stance tank...unless you make them go in under stance, and block their ability to go back. Which causes pitchforks and torches by the masses.

Again, not throwing the idea out the window. I adore Earth-based spells and Thunder (fav. color is purple..) so me being able to throw stone spells and earth based enfeebles / enhancements around is great to me...and I love support classes or multi-purpose tools also.

I do apologize if this has been touched. After so many pages it's difficult to view things for me. I sometimes depend on the OP to update their original post to include hot topics to reduce repeat offenders like myself! Still a like to your original post for thinking about it rather than the others who go "Fix my jerb! How hard can it be?!"

Though, to answer part of my own question, they would have to tweak the fights / dungeons as is so that we can't ignore mechanics or supportive roles / healing roles. Such as party enhancements for groups of monsters to encourage enfeebling. Moves that hurt, like the Cone sight move in the new Palace runs. Or the new alexander, the trash do aoe flamethrower that, if stacked hurts..add a vulnerability up that can be esuna..adds up.

[Eloah]

Damn, I am still reading everything, the OP is really OP on this topic. But, wasn't 11s system similar to what the OP wants, no ridged structure and anyone could be any of the Trinity. I mean Ninja was a tank in that game. But with a system like that dont you still have to designate who is doing what, otherwise it would be a fight for control, maybe. I mean the way the system is now we know who does what, and even who does what in the off roles too. If I am playing DRK and I am paired with a War odds are I'm gonna be the MT, if I'm a SCH paired with a WHM I know I will be the OH. The way this game is set up I am free to choose anything I want, but I know my role for what I choose. I think thats what is confusing for the OP, most MMOs lock you into one job so they have to make specs, this game the specs are that you can be every job.

All you had to do is tell me why the Trinity is just fine as it is.

I think my post did that, but I could be wrong.

Also what the hell is this strawman I started seeing in everypost? Is that some MMO slang I am not familiar with?

[Nyghtmarerobu]

Also what the hell is this strawman I started seeing in everypost? Is that some MMO slang I am not familiar with?

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

[Avin00]

A straw-man proposal is a brainstormed simple draft proposal intended to generate discussion of its disadvantages and to provoke the generation of new and better proposals. The term is considered American business jargon but it's also encountered in engineering office culture.

Back to OPs topic as I've now been quoted. I stand by my opinion as this proposal will change nothing as it already is what happens in the very top % of skill in raids. Tanks flip into DPS stance the moment they can and stay in it as long as they can. Healers spend as much time in cleric stance as they can. I get that the perceived notion is that DPS in raids have it easier than other classes but that's because the other classes aren't worrying about either positional attacks in melee cases or losing stacks or providing support duties like brd mch and to a lesser extent summoner. Also DPS are frequently responsible for other mechanics in the encounters and not just smash face into keyboard as you believe. The other problem I see is that some people will not want to be support as in they don't want to heal they hate it despise it with a passion and this system effectively forces them to do so. You are telling a BLM that he needs to heal, he's going to tell you where to shove your opinion on what he should be doing. As for the argument that tanks can do as much dmg as dps that's a load of bull. With equal gear and equal skill they are nowhere near each other. Now I will admit to situations where players with either bad gear or lower skill have done less dmg than my tanks this proposal will not address that as you could still get situations where the Main Tank as it were was still out damaging the other damage dealers and if his skill and gear were sufficient he could be doing so while doing the most complex of mechanics.

[Savagelf]

i keep the trinity system please i think overhaul will ruin the game 1.0 was basic remove the trinity system yet every time a game tried get ride of the trinity system it seem it can't hold sub numbers or players base any where leave the trinity system would the death blow on ffxiv. sorry

[Irohma]

The Holy Trinity exists for the sake of balance. Removing the balance will freak people out and even the OP's interesting idea may find issues in keeping this balance. I am all out for making the game chaotic, unbalanced, and giving each class truly unique mechanics that do not exactly translate into end-game efficiency. But I am quite sure most people here would hate that, especially those with a competitive mindset. If you shake the base of balance, these people will never ever use a job that seems subpar because they want results, big numbers.

Anyway, I am not exactly a fun of the OP's suggestions, but I certainly share his feeling that SE is being held back by the Holy Trinity (and their quest for keeping things perfectly balanced). I fear that if they keep doing changes the way they are the game will have only three options of playstyle (tank, healing, and dps) even if we have a hundred different job out there. I want each job to feel unique, not a rehash of a role.

[Zojha]

The Holy Trinity exists for the sake of balance.

No. It exists for the sake of itself.

Tanks and Healers are the two pillars of the holy trinity and they are both artificial roles created by unavoidable damage. In a game in which damage is skill based and avoidable, tanks become obsolete and healers exist only to carry bad players. Unavoidable damage is all there is to these two roles. Balance is a non-factor, it only comes into play within the respective niché.

Damage on the other hand is necessitated by the winning condition being based on HP pools. You win if you deplete the enemy HP before your own are depleted. Only way to do that: Damage. It doesn't matter how you deal that damage either - putting a ball into a hole, guessing a hiragana character right, drawing a symbol with your finger on a touchpad, jumping on an enemies head, whatever. Dealing damage is one of the most diverse things in video gaming.

And that's why I said tanks and healers are "the" pillars of the trinity - Damage isn't a trinity thing. You have to deal damage in every game in which HP are a thing, trinity or not and tanks and healers need to do damage as well or they can't get solo content done.

[Tracewood]

This system you are talking about reminds me of one of the now dead superhero MMOs.
Everyone just picked the most pew pew thing and ignored every other option. Zero people healing, zero people being tanky. Pure deeps fest.
Running a dungeon was the worst thing ever. Groups were an unmanageable disaster.
Sorry, but I gotta agree with others, this is heresy.

Yeah, they tried it with XI to an extent. Only certain jobs were "allowed" to endgame because math nerds will want to be on the cutting edge of min/maxing. Other slightly less powerful jobs will be shunned into oblivion, even if you were excellent at it compared to the average flavor of the patch.

[AreciaRhi]

Well in 4.0 they will be reworking everything, so please look forward to it. (So they say)