Dismantle the Holy Trinity

[Aillith]

Holy hell what did I just read...

OP: I have an idea.
Every one else: We disagree for X reason
OP: *explodes because people don't agree and they are all wrong*

Don't post ideas if you are not comfortable with people wanting to discuss them and rebuke them. It really is that simple.

[Caitlyn]

Actually, I like OP's idea.

I have no idea if this will ever work, but to be honest, we almost have two stances for each class (Monk, Tanks, Healers). Bard and Machinist may work as some kind of supporters, but their support ability is not as high as it could be.

In fact, SE wants to change their cross skill and battle system. I m still wondering, how radical SE want to go to achieve this. At the moment, some classes can fit other roles very well (DPS-Warrior for example). I m not sure, if this is supposed to be.

From the last Famitsu interview:

Q5. Now we'd like to get into job balance. Thanks to your careful balancing, there isn't a single job that can't clear all content. We think that is marvelous, but i feel warriors and Scholars are a little..you know?
Y. Not a little...I think they are sticking out when it comes to utility. I'm not comparing jobs with their personal potential, but when you look at the wide range of utility WARs and SCHs can offer, they are just outrageous.

Q. By that, you mean in an 8 man party?
Y. Not specifically an 8 man party. In any sort of party composition, WARs and SCHs can slip themselves through most situations and their seats are guaranteed. When you compare WARs and SCHs to other jobs, you can say there is a bigger container when it comes to playerskill where the job can carry you and that is what troubles me.

On Topic: The idea is ok, but there is no garantee if and how this will actual work ingame. Maybe it wont change anything, maybe it will cause even more chaos as it is right now. Who knows.

[Shurrikhan]

I’ve been cultivating this idea in a special petri dish lately.

I mean, if you're going to dismantle the trinity anyways, why stop at renaming them, and ultimately creating just two roles out of three? Is there something wrong with leaving each job just... itself, perhaps with a summary of its various traits and role affinities?

And honestly, I like my damage "specialists" a little too much, as rare as I think they should actually be. And, some of their utility, be it potentially attributable instead to a "fighter" or "support" style, I just think fits better still as that third "role".

More importantly though, I just don't really see how this is going to add any particularly new or interesting gameplay in and of itself? What do you ultimately want from this?

I'd love to see more cross-role involvement, where "roles" are toolkits rather than clear divisions of duties, but I just don't see much if any difference from this binary grouping as opposed to our current ternary system.

[Chocolys]

First let me get this straight, I'm not fan of the "Trinity concept" and I wish more game would stop being designed around it.

Now concerning FFXIV and what you proposed:

People can already Tank, DPS and Heal when they wish. The game already supports it, it's called multi-classing on the same character.

Now about allowing an unique class to assume different role types, it would not solve the problem.
For example the issue with the lack of Tanks is the lack of people wanting to tank, or said otherwise the lack of people who wants to manage the focus/mechanics requirements of a tank. Same goes for Healing and DPSing. The three role plays differently regardless of the class; and there is simply more people who prefers to be DPS or Heal than tank.

[Solaiel]

Well i think taking out the trinity is the worst thing you can do, going by the title of this thread. Taking it out would literally mean going the guild wars 2 way of playing. As far as i recall it, that time was like no one could tank and healing was more something of a self heal stuff. There everyone was actually fighter or support. Sometimes it was fun , but as it came to dungeons it was a real mess. The thing we have here right now is basically some trinity with options for more depending on player skill.
So the question is only how to balance the trinity to feel rewarding when it comes to improving your skill.
I mean , if you take a fight on the logical lvl then it is clear that someone has to take the boss (tank) so that the others have their backs free to do damage, mechanics and keeping the group up. You always need the possibilities to do these things on an efficient lvl to beat real challenging stuff and removing the trinity feels a bit like removing the options to do this. So i would not call it remove at all. The thin line is to adjust the necessity of actually performing the roles at all and at the same time being rewarding to the ones who try to improve while not forgetting people with less time to do something like that. There has got to be something for everyone and thats a real hard thing to do after all. ( i think everyone admits this last thing)

So as one example from runes of magic. There was also something like the trinity, but with a widely opened gap for equip. The end of the story was, nobody learned the fight anymore but bought lots of high end equip from the market board and the bosses were dead in like 5 seconds or it was a wipe. (a little bit exaggerated , but still close to how it was there. but i hope you get the picture)
The problem i see there is, though fun at times it is not really rewarding for fun in the long run. You want to actually have something to do, but dishing out big damage numbers is of course something that is always contributing to the fight.
So i think having to do the jobs role and being able to deal some damage while there is an opening is something good actually. I also think that is what SE is trying to do here. Being able to clear content on the base role lvl and improve via damage and stuff in skill if the players. The only issue is the balance here. At times you are able to make it right, at times you make it too hard and sometimes too easy.
I think you really dont want to abandon the possibilities to tank or heal, because that would just seal a coffin.
Making it possible to perform actual multi roles like i think is what you mean is not a bad thing though. Warrior can tank and dps already and even the other tanks are not that far away to that anymore, even if there is still a noticeable gap.
But right now i just am not sure how far this should go. Because of the skill bloat and itemization we have it is really hard to address viable things in a balanced way. But remember that in the end too many options that are very good at the same time also makes the game a real lot easier if not done right. The battle rezz of summoners are a good example here, because even if both healers are dead you can still revive one and depending on situation add a lb3 and everyone stands again. combined with swift cast it is only a matter of seconds. In my opinion that is a real life saver.
So remember, one is easy to talk , but in the end there is way more to it than meets the eye.
So much from me, and dont take it with too much salt, because i only wanted to state some things like it looks like to me.

[MistakeNot]

Maybe, but I’m quite confident of it. I don’t like how the design of the roles in FF14 are. In other games the roles are very strict. Tanks tank, Healers heal, DPS kill. In FF14 the devs seem to want everyone to do everything, and I believe the Holy Trinity is getting in their way.

Balacing the burden of DPS, Tank and Healer isn’t quite working. The DPS have the easiest job in the game, while Tanks and Healers have the hardest. Despite that, Tanks and Healers are still demanded to do the DPS job as well. And I blame this on the lack of customization.

FF14 actually have a very clear distinction between DPS, Healers, and Tanks - much more rigidly enforced than in most other MMOs I have played.
DPS don't have an easier job - not if they are doing it right. It is just that when a healer or tank does a bad job it is much more obvious than when a DPS does a bad job.

The only times when tanks or healers need to do substantial damage is when the DPS aren't doing their job properly.

[ManuelBravo]

FF14 actually have a very clear distinction between DPS, Healers, and Tanks - much more rigidly enforced than in most other MMOs I have played.
DPS don't have an easier job - not if they are doing it right. It is just that when a healer or tank does a bad job it is much more obvious than when a DPS does a bad job.

The only times when tanks or healers need to do substantial damage is when the DPS aren't doing their job properly.

Correct It's all on how other player gauge DPS and Tanks. While in a perfect world we could all get along FFXIV has taken into account the sad reality. Player's " unique " perspective of jobs.

[Eloah]

Damn, I am still reading everything, the OP is really OP on this topic. But, wasn't 11s system similar to what the OP wants, no ridged structure and anyone could be any of the Trinity. I mean Ninja was a tank in that game. But with a system like that dont you still have to designate who is doing what, otherwise it would be a fight for control, maybe. I mean the way the system is now we know who does what, and even who does what in the off roles too. If I am playing DRK and I am paired with a War odds are I'm gonna be the MT, if I'm a SCH paired with a WHM I know I will be the OH. The way this game is set up I am free to choose anything I want, but I know my role for what I choose. I think thats what is confusing for the OP, most MMOs lock you into one job so they have to make specs, this game the specs are that you can be every job.

All you had to do is tell me why the Trinity is just fine as it is.

I think my post did that, but I could be wrong.

Also what the hell is this strawman I started seeing in everypost? Is that some MMO slang I am not familiar with?

[Nyghtmarerobu]

Also what the hell is this strawman I started seeing in everypost? Is that some MMO slang I am not familiar with?

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

[Avin00]

A straw-man proposal is a brainstormed simple draft proposal intended to generate discussion of its disadvantages and to provoke the generation of new and better proposals. The term is considered American business jargon but it's also encountered in engineering office culture.

Back to OPs topic as I've now been quoted. I stand by my opinion as this proposal will change nothing as it already is what happens in the very top % of skill in raids. Tanks flip into DPS stance the moment they can and stay in it as long as they can. Healers spend as much time in cleric stance as they can. I get that the perceived notion is that DPS in raids have it easier than other classes but that's because the other classes aren't worrying about either positional attacks in melee cases or losing stacks or providing support duties like brd mch and to a lesser extent summoner. Also DPS are frequently responsible for other mechanics in the encounters and not just smash face into keyboard as you believe. The other problem I see is that some people will not want to be support as in they don't want to heal they hate it despise it with a passion and this system effectively forces them to do so. You are telling a BLM that he needs to heal, he's going to tell you where to shove your opinion on what he should be doing. As for the argument that tanks can do as much dmg as dps that's a load of bull. With equal gear and equal skill they are nowhere near each other. Now I will admit to situations where players with either bad gear or lower skill have done less dmg than my tanks this proposal will not address that as you could still get situations where the Main Tank as it were was still out damaging the other damage dealers and if his skill and gear were sufficient he could be doing so while doing the most complex of mechanics.