Would you like an in-game parser?

[Kaurie]

Let me tell you a story, even though you are clearly busy trying to improve the way others express their points... it's not gonna work so you can stop. ^^
Few months ago I decided to try out the dps classes. This was really surprising in itself because originally I did not plan to play something that can just sit back and get carried without much effort.

So I picked up the machinist. The main reason behind it being the "songs" so it still seemed somewhat supportive and useful.

I played it bit, looked up the rotation, leveled it to 60 and then got kinda curious how much useless I was - so here I installed the parser... and it was horrible. The MCH dps being a little bit lower in itself helped neither. Anyways, after the initial shock of trying to figure out where does the MCH dps stand in the comparison to the other jobs, I managed to get satisfied with my performance... which ended quite fast when I got matched with another MCH who was doing much more than I did. I was seriously baffled by it... how come someone can do so much even though my rotation was golden? It seemed too much even for the gear difference, as I was still gearing up. So I was pondering, hitting the dummy and pondering some more - till it hit me back.

Maybe that useless dexterity potion could contribute more than I expected? You know, waste of gil, the effect is too short, barely noticeable... it did not seem worth it.

Whelp, nope, it boosted my dps so much I was just looking at the screen unable to comprehend it.

Without the parser I would have no idea how much the potions improve your dps contribution.

You may like parsers, you may hate them, but even if they would cause all the toxicity as it is believed they still help you to get better which also makes the experience itself better. Pretty much the better you are the less likely you are to get attacked by the toxic players that you might fear.


Now question time:

How many players do you think use the potions in Ex primals etc. if they have no idea how much dps that one button does? How many enrages could have been stopped? How many players are willing to waste their gil for the sake of killing that primal?

(It would be easier to answer while looking at some parser logs of course :3 but feel free to guess.)

That is a good story =) I am happy to hear that a parser helped you in that way. It is a good thing, though, that having parsers be against the ToS has resulted in people not harassing one for their skill level.

ohh.. wait

So you needed a parser to "git gud" because you didn't think increasing main stat by x amount would result in X DPS gain?

Sorry, but if you need a parser to understand that boosting your main stat will boost your damage by a lot, you have another problem

The food literally tells you it increases stats in the description. If they can't read those, how are they gonna read a parser?

@ These responses, it's pretty fair to assume the effect would be minimal. You have ~1100-1200 DEX + CRIT/SkS/DET etc etc. You increase DEX by 100 (so maybe ~1/13th) for 20s every 5 minutes, that's a 0.4% increase every 5 minutes. It would not be inherently obvious that your damage changes that much in your opener to many, I am sure.

No hard feelings to him but since it's a pro-parser who used this comparison, it's only fair to talk about the possible bad outcome.
That's why, when I made such a comparison I used "baseball bat in a kindergarden", hurting once in a while is a real risk...death...not so much

But, to mix my view on the topic and the gun metaphor : I don't mind you having a gun, as long as you can't point it at me without my consent.

Both guns and bats are bad comparisons, as they both are actually what hits the person. In the case of a parser and harassment, what hits the person is words. The tool, in this scenario, is not a physical object that can cause pain, it is information which may fuel harassment.

When it comes down to it, all of our analogies suck, because there are very few things in this world which are similar. This is a digital tool used in an entertainment medium which is experienced in a cooperative environment for which we pay monthly. I don't know many other things that fit those criteria, outside of other MMO's, which do have parsers and all evidence of their effects are completely anecdotal ("well, when I played WoW, people were jerks with parsers!", "yeah, well I play WoW and i've never seen anyone be a jerk, but I've seen a lot of good come from it." "yeah well...")

[Reinha]

When it comes down to it, all of our analogies suck, because there are very few things in this world which are similar. This is a digital tool used in an entertainment medium which is experienced in a cooperative environment for which we pay monthly. I don't know many other things that fit those criteria, outside of other MMO's, which do have parsers and all evidence of their effects are completely anecdotal ("well, when I played WoW, people were jerks with parsers!", "yeah, well I play WoW and i've never seen anyone be a jerk, but I've seen a lot of good come from it." "yeah well...")

I think the analogies of school grades are pretty accurate. Everyone gets a number from a test and they have a right to not show it to their peers. This could be a different case in your country. I've seen pupils afraid or attention for both good and bad grades, annoyed by their not-high-enough-grade, satisfied with their grade, bullied for their grade, congratulated for their grade, unable to get a higher grade because of their mental limitations, unable to get a higher grade because they just don't put in enough effort to practice, and getting ridiculously competitive over grades. Now bear in mind, everyone knows what the best grade, the lowest grade and the average grades are because the grading system is known to all. There is no need to compare to peers because the scale is already known. Everyone has extensive experience getting graded. Yet, that doesn't change the fact that half the people don't get the grade that represents "good" performance. Knowing their previous grade very rarely resulted in a better grade next time as far as I saw. Even in the case of co-operative projects and tasks that affect every team member's grade, people performed at their usual level.

The rotation and general requirements of a dps class tests muscle memory (where are my buttons), short term memory (what buffs are up, where am I in my rotation), long term memory (abilities, what is my rotation, what different rotations do I have: burst/aoe/single target/debuff upkeep), reaction speed (procs, interrupting, positioning, utility spells), processing capacity (environtment, party members status, boss abilities) and studied knowledge of the game (stats, melding, typical combat mechanics, gear acquisition, consumables, role boundaries, repairing gear, mechanics of other classes and jobs). I find the demands very similar to what a school subject might require a student. At the higher end of performance people are required to analyze, find connections and consequences, reflect on past knowledge and be creative.

Maybe this is why I can't take very seriously the ambitious goal of "improving the player base as a whole" when we're talking about public parsers in DF. Has there ever been a case where the public visibility of grades made the whole school get A-grades or even Bs? I doubt it. Peer pressure does not affect everyone and it's effect diminishes the older we get. There is also a gender difference: males are affected by peer pressure more than females are. On average, males become more competitive and more engaged in the activity when there is competition involved, whereas females do not and in some cases become mentally withdrawn and disinterested in the activity. Some people do not flourish in a competitive environment and it would be unfair to give them no choice in this regard (i.e. the ability to choose to show their numbers / choose the content without public parsers / choose groups without public parsers). This is not even taking in to account bullying or test phobia, just regular people who do a bit worse and enjoy it less when it's a competition. Competition also doesn't just mean people getting rewards. It's a situation where people can be put in order from worse to better in some way, like based on dps numbers. Asking people to avoid the subconscious effects of a competitive atmosphere (negative or positive) is not realistic and hence we need to allow people to avoid such an environment altogether as they have been able to so far.

I also wonder if there is an effect to performance when people know or don't know how well they personally did. I recall Sweden having schools where pupils were not given grades at all, but other kinds of feedback. I would be interested to know if there are studies that have measured change or difference in the pupils' performance compared to ones that know their grades. If there is no change or difference then that would make me believe it's not the grade itself that helps people learn but rather the quality of teaching and cultivating internal motivation.

You don't need to compete. I just gave that as an example of a theory. For some people competitiveness drives them. If you don't care about competing but your DPS is fine nothing to worry about I can understand where you are coming from with your statement though.

I understand where Remus is coming from. The idea is to encourage peoples competitive sides, for those who have them. Give incentive to see higher numbers rather than saying "get to the end at your own pace". If that doesn't interest you then you simply don't have to do it. It's not a competition between DPS (that would be dumb in a dungeon with a MNK and BRD), its a competition between a DPS and his past "high score".

If you understand that some people don't want to participate in a competitive environment or activity, then would you be fine with letting people to hide their dps from others and hide others' dps from themselves? Talking about all content except Extremes and Savage.

[Archaell]

I think the analogies of school grades are pretty accurate.

If you want to go this route...

Remember how great it was when the teacher decided to give you group projects and put students in the groups randomly?

It is so similar to DF it is scary.

[Dement]

I think the analogies of school grades are pretty accurate. Everyone gets a number from a test and they have a right to not show it to their peers. This could be a different case in your country. I've seen pupils afraid or attention for both good and bad grades, annoyed by their not-high-enough-grade, satisfied with their grade, bullied for their grade, congratulated for their grade, unable to get a higher grade because of their mental limitations, unable to get a higher grade because they just don't put in enough effort to practice, and getting ridiculously competitive over grades. Now bear in mind, everyone knows what the best grade, the lowest grade and the average grades are because the grading system is known to all. There is no need to compare to peers because the scale is already known. Everyone has extensive experience getting graded. Yet, that doesn't change the fact that half the people don't get the grade that represents "good" performance. Knowing their previous grade very rarely resulted in a better grade next time as far as I saw. Even in the case of co-operative projects and tasks that affect every team member's grade, people performed at their usual level.

I fear that the analogy does indeed break down due to the nature of the game. While it is fine for some to show their grade and some to hide their grade for whatever reason they so desire in school; it would be a bit different of a story if the Teacher/Professor suddenly claimed "the entire class passes or the entire class fails based off of if the class can average an 85%" (a DPS check). Also as a fun infusion of chaos a full 1/3 to 1/2 of the class will not even know their grade (PS4 players and those who refuse to parse or listen to parsed numbers) at any given time. Now, how does the class move forward? Who needs additional help and tutoring? If you were going to fail for reasons completely outside of your own control, would you not want to know about it to try to avoid such a fate?

If you understand that some people don't want to participate in a competitive environment or activity, then would you be fine with letting people to hide their dps from others and hide others' dps from themselves? Talking about all content except Extremes and Savage.

I am perfectly fine with parsers being limited to Extremes and Savage unless they release other content that has very stringent DPS checks. Parsers can help teams get through DPS checks, that's their purpose. Additionally, I would reiterate once again that parsers need to be a part of training dummies so that someone can actually practice to improve.

[Remus]

If you understand that some people don't want to participate in a competitive environment or activity, then would you be fine with letting people to hide their dps from others and hide others' dps from themselves? Talking about all content except Extremes and Savage.

So personal parser so you only see it? I wouldn't mind that either at least it some form of measuring yourself. I rather have either a group parser or a personal parser either one is fine.

[segagamer]

tl;dr
Anti parser players dont want parsers implemented because they'll actually have to put effort in dungeons rather than being carried

[Jynx]

tl;dr
Anti parser players dont want parsers implemented because they'll actually have to put effort in dungeons rather than being carried

tl;dr
Pro parser players want parses implemented so they can officially harass players with numbers.

Look I can make pointless untrue sweeping statements too!

[birdy_reene]

So personal parser so you only see it? I wouldn't mind that either at least it some form of measuring yourself. I rather have either a group parser or a personal parser either one is fine.

They already do have it, Sorta. The dummies in iddleshire from that one guy for seph ex, and the savages ect ect. But if they added a parse to it to let you know how your doing and where your lacking, I'd like them to force players to clear the dummies before they are allowed to attempt the actual content. This way it helps keep "there grade private" but also insures to others they don't have to carry dead weight. Half win for everyone.

[tjw]

But if they added a parse to it to let you know how your doing and where your lacking, I'd like them to force players to clear the dummies before they are allowed to attempt the actual content. This way it helps keep "there grade private" but also insures to others they don't have to carry dead weight. Half win for everyone.

Issue with this is that it would literally only be a 'half win' because it'll only test 1/2 of the party's roles. What of tank/healer roles? How do we test for these two roles so they aren't being 'carried'? If the requirement is to only DPS, that doesn't measure the tank's skill at keeping hate, or measure a healer's HPS and reaction times.

[birdy_reene]

snip.

Good point, I cant think of a good fix for the tank thing, unless they create a mock situation like in the novice network quests for tanks where they gotta protect npc from getting hit/hold agro. Seems kinda out there, so your your right on that one. As far as Healer that's easy to solve with Dummies, Make aoes and what not that force the healer to move around, while requiring them to Heal dummies. Who will take dmg similar to how a party geared for that run would. and require that you keep the dummies up and running and or only allow for so many revives before the timer runs out. reverse dps check. Heal check. But im totally stumped on the tanking part. You got me with that one.