Would you like an in-game parser?

[Archaell]

I think the analogies of school grades are pretty accurate.

If you want to go this route...

Remember how great it was when the teacher decided to give you group projects and put students in the groups randomly?

It is so similar to DF it is scary.

[Dement]

I think the analogies of school grades are pretty accurate. Everyone gets a number from a test and they have a right to not show it to their peers. This could be a different case in your country. I've seen pupils afraid or attention for both good and bad grades, annoyed by their not-high-enough-grade, satisfied with their grade, bullied for their grade, congratulated for their grade, unable to get a higher grade because of their mental limitations, unable to get a higher grade because they just don't put in enough effort to practice, and getting ridiculously competitive over grades. Now bear in mind, everyone knows what the best grade, the lowest grade and the average grades are because the grading system is known to all. There is no need to compare to peers because the scale is already known. Everyone has extensive experience getting graded. Yet, that doesn't change the fact that half the people don't get the grade that represents "good" performance. Knowing their previous grade very rarely resulted in a better grade next time as far as I saw. Even in the case of co-operative projects and tasks that affect every team member's grade, people performed at their usual level.

I fear that the analogy does indeed break down due to the nature of the game. While it is fine for some to show their grade and some to hide their grade for whatever reason they so desire in school; it would be a bit different of a story if the Teacher/Professor suddenly claimed "the entire class passes or the entire class fails based off of if the class can average an 85%" (a DPS check). Also as a fun infusion of chaos a full 1/3 to 1/2 of the class will not even know their grade (PS4 players and those who refuse to parse or listen to parsed numbers) at any given time. Now, how does the class move forward? Who needs additional help and tutoring? If you were going to fail for reasons completely outside of your own control, would you not want to know about it to try to avoid such a fate?

If you understand that some people don't want to participate in a competitive environment or activity, then would you be fine with letting people to hide their dps from others and hide others' dps from themselves? Talking about all content except Extremes and Savage.

I am perfectly fine with parsers being limited to Extremes and Savage unless they release other content that has very stringent DPS checks. Parsers can help teams get through DPS checks, that's their purpose. Additionally, I would reiterate once again that parsers need to be a part of training dummies so that someone can actually practice to improve.

[Remus]

If you understand that some people don't want to participate in a competitive environment or activity, then would you be fine with letting people to hide their dps from others and hide others' dps from themselves? Talking about all content except Extremes and Savage.

So personal parser so you only see it? I wouldn't mind that either at least it some form of measuring yourself. I rather have either a group parser or a personal parser either one is fine.

[segagamer]

tl;dr
Anti parser players dont want parsers implemented because they'll actually have to put effort in dungeons rather than being carried

[Reinha]

I never said you or anyone else is afraid of DPS checks, I said people can be lazy yes, but please don't lie without thinking 1 second replying to me about this. You have 3 guys in a expert roulette doing 950-1.300,while last man is 550-600, is this behavior fine to accept?

Yes it is fine in Expert roulette, when the healer requirement is this:
(right click -> open new tab to see full pic)

Yup, it is indeed sad. Here is my second experiment after trying LCoA with WHM i76. I removed as much as I could without raising suspicion.




No danger whatsoever even with my 8k HP. I only had to heal a bit more and using cooldowns gave me room to dps.

So whatever kind of dps is possible with a 210 weapon, hat and chest piece should be the baseline for damage dealers, because it is for healers too. Actually I was able to dps as a healer which is extra so make it just a weapon and chest piece.

Besides, isn't expert roulette the perfectly right place for the low dps to be as long as they finish? I mean, where else do you want them? Extreme primals? Leveling dungeons, most of which are harder than expert dungeons (lol)?

tl;dr
Anti parser players dont want parsers implemented because they'll actually have to put effort in dungeons rather than being carried

Care to elaborate
(1) What forces players to put in effort even if there are parsers?
(2) What makes you think anti parser people are not already playing at their full effort?
(3) What makes you think anti parser people are being carried?
(4) What makes you think that wanting to slack and troll by doing nothing is any more common than people abusing the information a parser brings? There are bad apples in every subset of people.
(5) Did you read this thread at all or do you just like to drop in and shout inflammatory and generalizing comments on behalf of people you know nothing about? You are not exactly inviting concerned people to trust players like you with a parser.

[Kaurie]

I think the analogies of school grades are pretty accurate. Everyone gets a number from a test and they have a right to not show it to their peers. This could be a different case in your country. I've seen pupils afraid or attention for both good and bad grades, annoyed by their not-high-enough-grade, satisfied with their grade, bullied for their grade, congratulated for their grade, unable to get a higher grade because of their mental limitations, unable to get a higher grade because they just don't put in enough effort to practice, and getting ridiculously competitive over grades. Now bear in mind, everyone knows what the best grade, the lowest grade and the average grades are because the grading system is known to all. There is no need to compare to peers because the scale is already known. Everyone has extensive experience getting graded. Yet, that doesn't change the fact that half the people don't get the grade that represents "good" performance. Knowing their previous grade very rarely resulted in a better grade next time as far as I saw. Even in the case of co-operative projects and tasks that affect every team member's grade, people performed at their usual level.

In terms of school grades being posted, this depended on the grade/teacher/school for me. I specifically remember my Chemistry 11 grades being posted and my buddy saying "YES I BEAT <my name>!" look at grades and it was like 92.01% vs 92.02% or something stupid.

In terms of an analogy, this is just as bad as the rest - it leaves out a crucial criteria for which I mentioned. This is a cooperative game, so the numbers that we have actually affect those around us - whereas my grade in school had no effect on my peers.

There is also another major factor, where the desire to do better in grades is fueled by more than just bragging rights or finishing faster (like DPS in FFXIV). People want to do well in school as it opens more opportunities for careers, universities and so on.

Maybe this is why I can't take very seriously the ambitious goal of "improving the player base as a whole" when we're talking about public parsers in DF. Has there ever been a case where the public visibility of grades made the whole school get A-grades or even Bs? I doubt it. Peer pressure does not affect everyone and it's effect diminishes the older we get. There is also a gender difference: males are affected by peer pressure more than females are. On average, males become more competitive and more engaged in the activity when there is competition involved, whereas females do not and in some cases become mentally withdrawn and disinterested in the activity. Some people do not flourish in a competitive environment and it would be unfair to give them no choice in this regard (i.e. the ability to choose to show their numbers / choose the content without public parsers / choose groups without public parsers). This is not even taking in to account bullying or test phobia, just regular people who do a bit worse and enjoy it less when it's a competition. Competition also doesn't just mean people getting rewards. It's a situation where people can be put in order from worse to better in some way, like based on dps numbers. Asking people to avoid the subconscious effects of a competitive atmosphere (negative or positive) is not realistic and hence we need to allow people to avoid such an environment altogether as they have been able to so far.

This is difficult to compare directly, as they are completely different circumstances. We would need to have a sample of students who go through school and are only told that they have either passed or failed, with no metrics to tell by how much. We'd then need to compare that with a sample of students who are given their grades. We'd then need a sample of students who had grades psoted. We could then test for any correlations on performance per group. We'd then need to re-create this study several times over before coming to any significant conclusion. That said, I am fairly certain in a classroom where you are given pass/fail and no visible percent/grades, the students would perform worse.

I also wonder if there is an effect to performance when people know or don't know how well they personally did. I recall Sweden having schools where pupils were not given grades at all, but other kinds of feedback. I would be interested to know if there are studies that have measured change or difference in the pupils' performance compared to ones that know their grades. If there is no change or difference then that would make me believe it's not the grade itself that helps people learn but rather the quality of teaching and cultivating internal motivation.

We could compare cross countries, but then there are more things at play than simply if the classroom provides grades or not. We're now allowing plenty of outside factors affect the outcome and to skew the data. That said, it sounds like we would both be interested in said studies.

[Miste]

If you want to go this route...

Remember how great it was when the teacher decided to give you group projects and put students in the groups randomly?

It is so similar to DF it is scary.

Oh boy, I hated group projects. Yes, unfortunately it is very similar to DF lol

Mostly because I was a very determined student so I always worked my hardest to get top grades. I knew high grades could help me with scholarships and grants because I am not rich nor is my family.

Usually the class (or program in college) figured this out about me pretty fast due to my overall studious nature, being able to answer questions easily, and help others study for tests/exams etc. Or gossip about my grades or GPA.

So I'd get thrown into a random group of students for a project that the prof chose. Well all those students knew they'd be golden because they knew I wouldn't let myself get a bad grade. So some of them either don't do anything or only do the bare minimum so you couldn't go to the prof to complain or something. They knew with me in their group they'd get an A+.

Usually would end up me at the last minute the night before the due date rushing to finish a part that was not even touched by the student who was supposed to handle it. Or finishing up another student's only partly finished contribution. Usually you have a week or more to do these group projects, so these students could have come and asked other members including me for assistance because they were stuck or didn't know what to do, but they almost never do. They just stay silent and either pretend they are doing their part or just don't mention it.

So to me this behavior very inconsiderate; they don't care that they are pushing their work off onto someone else and making them rush at the last minute. I'd even prefer if they just straight up told the group "I am not doing my share". At least I would know at the beginning so I can just plan the extra work into my schedule instead of rushing at the last minute.

This sadly feels relate-able to DF sometimes, but a game is just a game. It isn't the same as achieving good grades in school which could possibly affect your future etc. So it's not exactly the same thing, but still kinda sadly familiar. So while I think it is inconsiderate not to put forth the effort to contribute your fair share to a team/group effort. I realize not all people do it on purpose in FFXIV. If I thought that I'd be making assumptions.

That's still not a reason to give them another mean to be so. That's why I suggested a toggled parser, to deal appropriately with each person you meet.

Well like I said in another post I am not pro or con for parser I am just neutral I don't care if they add one or not. I can see both sides and I understand and respect both opinions.

What I posted is just my observation I feel there is too much paranoia about parsers. Fact is no one knows how the community will be if an official parser was added tomorrow. You can try to compare to other games, but FFXIV is not other games. It is its own separate community. It may have some overlap with other online communities but it is unique in itself. No one community is exactly the same as another. So they may react differently to different things. I respect that some hold the opinion that it would make the community worse because its a valid opinion to have. I just personally feel some responses are using odd arguments that lean too much on paranoia to try to prove parsers are a bad thing.

Another thing that needs to stop is the generalizations. On both sides. The main reason I called out Preypacer is because they were just being a bully because of the rude comments they make. All they seem to do is lump people into generalizations because they believe they are that sort of person just because of something they wrote (or just because they like parsers) even if it didn't have any outwardly rude behavior in it. The assumptions are getting out of hand.

Just because someone is pro-parser doesn't mean they are going to use an official parser to be rude to other players or call them out or anything of the sort. Some people are just claiming others will do this just because they like parsers etc. Stop doing this. You are demonizing people just because they have a differing opinion. It's like if I hated bacon because some guy threw some at me one time and hit me in the face with it and then I turn around and say all people who like bacon are jerks. Yeah...no, not true at all.

Just because someone is anti-parser doesn't mean they are lazy, bad, don't want to be held accountable etc. Them not wanting an official parser could have nothing to do with how they play their job. Laziness happens; I get that. I am sure some players you come across are just being lazy. Problem is you can't just call people lazy just because they aren't doing as good as you could etc. Unless they openly say "I am just being lazy" then you are just making assumptions. Everyone has a skill cap; what you consider "bad" might be all they are capable of due to being new to games, new to the job they are playing, new to the content, etc. It might take them twice or even three times as long to learn to play a job/content correctly compared to you; everyone learns at different speeds.

You don't need a parser to be good at this game or jobs in it. Anti-parser players probably have a lot of people who are just fine at their jobs they just would prefer not to poke the sleeping bull as it were and introduce official parsers where certain players can use it to abuse others. I totally get that as being a possible problem. I just know it is fact we don't know if it would end up being THAT bad. As I said I don't know if this community is THAT toxic. We have people be jerks already anyway I am not sure if it would get worse because of this. Or just stay mostly the same with the typical 'would have been jerks anyway' players still doing their jerk job etc.

[Reinha]

If you want to go this route...

Remember how great it was when the teacher decided to give you group projects and put students in the groups randomly?

It is so similar to DF it is scary.

Except you can choose your group in DF by forming it before queuing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So it would be like a group assignment where the teacher allows you to pick your group, and if you can't be bothered the teacher finds a group for you.

[Miste]

Except you can choose your group in DF by forming it before queuing. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So it would be like a group assignment where the teacher allows you to pick your group, and if you can't be bothered the teacher finds a group for you.

Just because you point at people and say "join my group" doesn't mean they will obey you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

They might just ignore you and force you to "queue" alone as it were.

Not everyone has the option to queue into DF every time with a full premade. So if you have some friends but they are only online the same time as you 2 days out of the week and you need people to queue with on other days (and people aren't joining your PF) you end up kinda sol?

Anyway I think he was pointing out that being put with random people doesn't always go well. There are some people who are mean, lazy, don't care about helping, etc. They exist. So it is kinda scary sometimes xD

Not that you should go in assuming that of everyone mind you. Innocent until proven guilty etc.

[Seraphix2407]

Yes it is fine in Expert roulette, when the healer requirement is this:

It's fine, but is it something everyone should follow as an example? No. There was actually a time I was in Dusk Vigil as healer. I asked the guy gently to put up on his normal gear as I saw him use 39-44 gear as ilvl 52. He said ''whoops'' my bad. 5 min later it was still on and he said there was nothing else he could use, why lie in the first place then make us wait? So eventually we had enough, reported him for keeping us hostage just because he thought it's fine to do it on purpose. Guess what happened? The GM showed up and removed him. That's what some people don't get, it's almost like trolling.