SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[ShinMetsu]

You know, there's a few who keep saying that adding a new tank doesn't bring in new players to the role, which I absolutely refute, but if we humor that idea for a moment, then we gotta look at what the tank population enjoys. Completely disregarding SAM's place in the picture, I gotta say a RDM or BLU tank look boring, and will be the first tanks ever in an FF game that don't interest me. In XI, I leveled PLD, NIN, WAR (zerg tank), SAM (merit pt tank), MNK (Salvage tank), and was working on DRK (new zerg tank) before quitting.

I always level every tank, but a RDM/BLU tank just doesn't appeal to me. It needs to be said that being completely original doesn't mean interesting.

That is exactly the point. Why do you have to exclude other people with different tastes from tanking?
There is a lot of people that would rather play a mage and RDM could be the gateway to tanking for a lot of them.

RDM was a dope tank in FFXI at some point btw, the fast cast made RDM/NIN dodge like crazy. And it was godly at soloing.


Then let me make some other arguments for RDM.
Where would you place a RDM? As jack of all trades, it should have access to melee, white and black magic.
As a DPS? Melee Magic Caster sounds really interesting to me actually, but how would any healing fit in there? They can't really go and make a DPS that heals, just the targeting issues are too taxing for the general playerbase.
As a Healer? This would be even worse, having a healer in melee range seems really bad.
As a Tank they could use all of what makes them a Red Mage though, it fits in the role of the tank perfectly in that sense.

And what is RDM gonna do with it's Shield otherwise? Just for looks? :P


But i feel like there is no point anymore, it's obvious you only want more of the same stuff we already have.
To me that's just like the same car but a different color, sure, it might look nice. But it's gonna drive the same.

Having tanked for well over a decade myself considering ffxi.. Personally i'd welcome the variety, very much so.
I had actually written up a rdm tank concept myself here.


As for Samurai, I wonder how many people would pick Samurai if you asked for their opinion on the top 5 Damage Dealers across FF.
If SE does decide to make Samurai a tank, i hope they manage to come up with a fresh concept for tanking.
Still would like to see a Samurai tank concept that actually looks different from what we already got as well as fits it.

[Shippuu]

RDM was a dope tank in FFXI at some point btw, the fast cast made RDM/NIN dodge like crazy. And it was godly at soloing.

Because it utilized /Nin. By using NIN's Utsustemi it was able to create a certainly OP gimmick. Any other sub job and RDM couldn't tank/solo anything that was actually challenging. Not really a good argument when it had to rely on another job's abilities to make it overpowered.

Then let me make some other arguments for RDM.
Where would you place a RDM? As jack of all trades, it should have access to melee, white and black magic.
As a DPS? Melee Magic Caster sounds really interesting to me actually, but how would any healing fit in there? They can't really go and make a DPS that heals, just the targeting issues are too taxing for the general playerbase.

This doesn't rule out new healing type abilities or supplemental buffs. They can easily have utility-like white magic spells that can perform functions similar to Mantra. Or provide a weaker version of WHM's Asylum. Or even just an instant cast medica-like spell that is on a cooldown. They get to use white magic without having to stand there and try and individually heal people. It's utility and honestly goes in-line well with Ninja, who offers a lot of utility while being melee and having a handful of magical ranged attacks.

As a Tank they could use all of what makes them a Red Mage though, it fits in the role of the tank perfectly in that sense.

Sure, except they don't traditionally wear Heavy Armor and that's a further step away from "Final Fantasy Red Mage" than having a Samurai in heavy armor. So it's not only not what they traditionally use in FF games, it opens up a huge itemization issue if they don't use heavy fending armor. More work for devs = less likely to happen.

As for Samurai, I wonder how many people would pick Samurai if you asked for their opinion on the top 5 Damage Dealers across FF.

I wonder how many people would pick a different job that we have that would be even higher on that list that is now a tank in FFXIV. (DRK)

And I wonder how many people think Samurai is a top DPS because it sometimes has abilities that can instantly kill enemies. An ability that would never make it into an MMO because it would be utterly overpowered. And I wonder how many people are just so caught up in what they picture Samurai as from different media and not even realize how Samurai actually were in FF games (Like you do) and as such have a skewed and incorrect image of Samurai in FF games.

[DWolfwood]

Why do you have to exclude other people with different tastes from tanking?
There is a lot of people that would rather play a mage and RDM could be the gateway to tanking for a lot of them.

If you're really gonna try to use this point, surely the realization that tons of people are going to be more interested in a Samurai tank than a Red Mage has crossed your mind. While people like yourself may not like it, overall, more people are going to play the Samurai tank than Red Mage, even you seem to be willing to try it. It's just got more wide-appeal.

RDM was a dope tank in FFXI at some point btw, the fast cast made RDM/NIN dodge like crazy.

And when was this exactly? Are we talking low-man content once it became irrelevant? RDM could tank, but it definitely wasn't what we used in world progression and anything relevant to dominating a server. Being able to solo a lot of content, ala Avesta, is not the same as tanking.

And it was godly at soloing.

Yep, and I don't offer anything that should change that in XIV.

Where would you place a RDM?...
As a Healer? This would be even worse, having a healer in melee range seems really bad.

Yep, as a Healer. It's not only easy to have them use a melee DPS stance ala Clerics, but the concept is actually interesting and can appeal to DPS that would otherwise never play a healing class. Give them lesser cures than WHM, a melee stance, and some offensive spells, and bam, there you go.

And what is RDM gonna do with it's Shield otherwise? Just for looks? :P

WHM and BLM also have shields, does that make them a tank? Not to mention, the buckler of RDM is not even that strongly attached to them, it's just an optional take:



And if you really wanna get into it, the rapier is also optional according to other FF developers:



That said, I think the proper, and more interesting representation wields a rapier. So I'm actually on your side there, but I believe they also need to be able to heal. In no iteration has taking damage been an aspect of RDM except FFXI, which arguably had every single job "tank" at some point from WHM to RNG to DRK. In fact, RDM are specifically weaker than Warriors physically.

it's obvious you only want more of the same stuff we already have.
To me that's just like the same car but a different color, sure, it might look nice. But it's gonna drive the same.

Yeah, I see variety in having an Eastern tank job. You see variety in having another sword/shield tank that uses magic to enhance their defenses. It sounds like another shade of PLD/DRK to me, which already struggle with defining themselves. I'd prefer more magic abilities in 4.0 for PLD and DRK.

[Katana190]

Then let me make some other arguments for RDM.
Where would you place a RDM? As jack of all trades, it should have access to melee, white and black magic.
As a DPS? Melee Magic Caster sounds really interesting to me actually, but how would any healing fit in there? They can't really go and make a DPS that heals, just the targeting issues are too taxing for the general playerbase.
As a Healer? This would be even worse, having a healer in melee range seems really bad.
As a Tank they could use all of what makes them a Red Mage though, it fits in the role of the tank perfectly in that sense.

This is definitely a good point. The only problem I see with a Mage Tank is the constant interrupts it would get, it would ruin the gameplay and make it unplayable unless they had a way around it, I doubt we would see RDM with any sort of cast spells but rather insta casts, which take away from the 'Mage' feeling, a bit like how DRK was supposed to have "spells" but it just felt like it had some oGCD's that do magic dmg and its aoe and pull which aren't used as much as your standard combo's in raiding... The exact same thing will probably happen with RDM, taking away from this different type of tank idea people are getting. Don't get me wrong, I think RDM tank is super interesting... but it sounds like they would have to change a lot of tanking gameplay mechanics to make RDM truly feel unique, which I can't see SE doing, when creating different jobs SE tends to keep in mind that people will switch jobs within their current role, making the difference in gameplay not that diverse.

My opinion will stay the same though, RDM or SAM tank. I have no qualms with either at this point, their both very aesthetically pleasing and have unique themes in gameplay from previous FF titles (I think?) Although now RDM tank is out of the way... I can very well picture RDM being a melee support DPS, similar to ninja... instead of an TP Goad it could have an MP Goad..? instead of Trick Attack it could have a party wide haste buff? (Just an example), Instead of Shade Shift it could have a shield using White Magic, etc.. You get the point.

Edit: To clarify I went back and clicked Shin's link, his idea does give me the feeling of mage tank... but my concern would still stay if SE could actually pull it off, the spells would just be oGCD's and not give you the spell casting feeling of a Mage Tank. Not like I want to cast while tanking, but cutting the buffs and such into my gcd gives you more exciting gameplay rather then just press buttons for free buffs/spells.

[Duelle]

RDM was a dope tank in FFXI at some point btw, the fast cast made RDM/NIN dodge like crazy. And it was godly at soloing.

One was considered a joke (see: the melancholy of the paladin), and the other is a broken representation of a job that would otherwise have no business doing that. It's why the devs nerfed enfeeble enmity (the only reason a RDM tank was able to hold aggro) and why the devs never gave the job anything meaningful beyond Refresh II and Haste II...

As a DPS? Melee Magic Caster sounds really interesting to me actually, but how would any healing fit in there? They can't really go and make a DPS that heals, just the targeting issues are too taxing for the general playerbase.

Depends. If heals have a mechanic that limits their use and are very resource intensive, you effectively turn them into something to be used in dire moments. In this case a RDM's value comes more from their damage contributions and cooldowns while the heals generally fall by the wayside unless shit hits the fan.

As a Healer? This would be even worse, having a healer in melee range seems really bad.

That and turning the job into a healer after what was done to it in FFXI would be a further disservice to the job.

As a Tank they could use all of what makes them a Red Mage though, it fits in the role of the tank perfectly in that sense.

I'll disagree. Physically a RDM is weaker than fighter, much like its magic is not as strong as what a BLM or WHM can do. That's sort of the point behind the job. You can't take that and turn it into a tank without changing the concept and adding convoluted mechanics. Even then I'd say the role doesn't suit RDM.

Having tanked for well over a decade myself considering ffxi.. Personally i'd welcome the variety, very much so.

Read this if you want some variety.

B) They have another trait/passive that enables them to cast while moving, which again then it's not particularly a caster, just a regular job that has a wait time on their abilities to go off.

A potency trade-off would be more than fair if you were to add a trait that allows casting while moving.

C) Their spells are instant cast and thus the job is absolutely no different then things like we have with DRK where they have magical themed abilities that do AoE etc.

Not necessarily. In the case of DRK, putting on and dropping grit doesn't change how the DRK plays, and really only affects Blood Weapon.

The principle behind Grit could apply to a mage tank by changing how that class plays when tanking vs how they play when not taking. Tank stance could reduce/remove casting times while lowering potency (tank stances already reduce damage dealt), and dropping tank stance would give those skills their full cast times along with full potency.

If you want a comparison, think of it like the shouts in Skyrim. You could just settle for using Fus to push back an enemy instantly, or stand still and do the full Fus-Ro-Da to blow them away. Applying the mage tank concept on that would be that in tank mode your spell is basically just Fus, while in non-tank mode your spell is the full Fus-Ro-Da.