SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[ADVSS]

When we get through the classic jobs, I'm sure theyll shove that gunblade that everyone wants somewhere, or something else, hell musketeer was originally gonna be a chocobo rider with a gun, but im not too concerned past that point, call it nostalgia but id like to see more jobs we all know get put in before we run out.personally, though - as far as tanks and healers go, I think they would have the hardest time developing and balancing either, and im not too sure what AST was supposed to be to be honest. for healers theres some spells that do exist may be op but would handle healing a little different, from ff12 - bubble and reverse, also a tp healer. for tanks? thats a little bit harder because well tanking is a very precise thing in this game. It would require a ton of thought, maybe an overhaul to the current system for them to be able to make one thats refreshing and deviates from the template as is.

[EdwinLi]

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Actually Gunblade Job may not be too far off from release if 5.0 (if you don't consider another 3 years a long time) is the Garlean Empire Expansion people suspect to be due to Yoshi-P recent hint on what 5.0 maybe. Back during 2.0 release in a interview Yoshi-P said he was holding off Gunblade Job for when we can enter the Garlean Empire.

[ADVSS]

Actually Gunblade Job may not be too far off from release if 5.0 (if you don't consider another 3 years a long time) is the Garlean Empire Expansion people suspect to be due to Yoshi-P recent hint on what 5.0 maybe. Back during 2.0 release in a interview Yoshi-P said he was holding off Gunblade Job for when we can enter the Garlean Empire.

Thats pretty cool maybe a magitek knight job as an original, sort of I can dig that

[Lemuria]

With all this bickering, people are forgetting one fundamental rule of FFXIV. No one wants to play as a tank.

Granted, this is a sweeping generalisation, but the fact remains that there are very few tanks actually queuing for content despite the fact we now have three of them to choose from. The introduction of Dark Knight did nothing to increase its popularity aside from the early days when everyone was rushing to level them up. It wasn't long that it settled back into the same pattern we had seen before.

I've seen the notion bandied about that adding Samurai as a tank would somehow increase its popularity, but I beg to differ. Much like Dark Knight, there will be a glut of tanks shortly after it is released before it settles back down to a trickle. It'll become a job people level for the fun of it and shelve for eternity. In short, saying samurai should be a tank because it will increase the number of tanks overall is guesswork, as we've seen nothing to prove the case in the past.

This is not to say I support the idea of samurai being a DPS job. The job never really interested me much in old FF games either, so I don't have any real love for it one way or the other. Just dispelling this crazy idea that one option is better than the other because we don't have enough tanks. There are stronger more underlying reasons for that.

[ADVSS]

I cant agree more, of course i initially wanted both to be a dps, for sure the community would probably pick them up and love them day 1. My issue is with how tanks have been handled for "balance" and yeah i am one of those. stopped tanking in 2.1 ish as a pld main, enmity sucked it just wasnt great, even in early 2.0 getting my relic and running something simple like wanderers palace, and losing hate to zenth xerg black mages, it wasnt fun. I spent my last months tanking before 3.0 to prepare for drk, and got used to the str form of tanking. And I dont necessarily think that it was that 2 weeks of drk that boosted the tanking community, i feel like, when someone wakes up and loses 1/3 of the damage and enmity gain and potential self healing over night, they arent going to be too pleased. esp after 6 months of building it up(and no patches in between). Those that felt like 6 months of work and progress was cancelled overnight - probably quit. If you sap all the fun of the less hardcore role community out of a role, youre only stuck with the hardcore that enjoy only doing that, and until they fix this problem, it wont get any better, This is all my opinion though so take it with a grain of salt Tanking is really stressful for some, I know people who are and have been afraid to touch it since beta, things like making the role more complicated than it needs to be isnt winning people to its side at all.

[DWolfwood]

The introduction of Dark Knight did nothing to increase its popularity aside from the early days when everyone was rushing to level them up. It wasn't long that it settled back into the same pattern we had seen before.

I'm gonna have to just disagree. I personally know a lot of players who picked up tanking specifically to play DRK that are still tanking, and it's not just an anomaly. It continues to draw brand new players to the tanking role, and I don't really see how this is even refuted with how many "DRK New to Tanking" threads there are that continuously crop up on here and reddit.

That said, I think it's fair to argue that it shouldn't be made a tank, especially if the aim was to release it to appeal to the large portion of the DPS community. Is this what I think their intentions are? No. I made this thread not just to get support behind the idea of there being two samurai jobs, Shogun and Ronin, but also because I think there's already a large possibility that they might be doing this already. I honestly don't believe that Ronin will come out unless Shogun does though. There's just too much going against it in my opinion, despite what people have misinterpreted the interviews as. Even if we get both jobs, I think the possibility of Shogun coming out first is greater than them coming out at the same time.

I still maintain my stance that this game can not only accommodate both Shogun and Ronin, but should.

[Duelle]

RDM was a dope tank in FFXI at some point btw, the fast cast made RDM/NIN dodge like crazy. And it was godly at soloing.

One was considered a joke (see: the melancholy of the paladin), and the other is a broken representation of a job that would otherwise have no business doing that. It's why the devs nerfed enfeeble enmity (the only reason a RDM tank was able to hold aggro) and why the devs never gave the job anything meaningful beyond Refresh II and Haste II...

As a DPS? Melee Magic Caster sounds really interesting to me actually, but how would any healing fit in there? They can't really go and make a DPS that heals, just the targeting issues are too taxing for the general playerbase.

Depends. If heals have a mechanic that limits their use and are very resource intensive, you effectively turn them into something to be used in dire moments. In this case a RDM's value comes more from their damage contributions and cooldowns while the heals generally fall by the wayside unless shit hits the fan.

As a Healer? This would be even worse, having a healer in melee range seems really bad.

That and turning the job into a healer after what was done to it in FFXI would be a further disservice to the job.

As a Tank they could use all of what makes them a Red Mage though, it fits in the role of the tank perfectly in that sense.

I'll disagree. Physically a RDM is weaker than fighter, much like its magic is not as strong as what a BLM or WHM can do. That's sort of the point behind the job. You can't take that and turn it into a tank without changing the concept and adding convoluted mechanics. Even then I'd say the role doesn't suit RDM.

Having tanked for well over a decade myself considering ffxi.. Personally i'd welcome the variety, very much so.

Read this if you want some variety.

B) They have another trait/passive that enables them to cast while moving, which again then it's not particularly a caster, just a regular job that has a wait time on their abilities to go off.

A potency trade-off would be more than fair if you were to add a trait that allows casting while moving.

C) Their spells are instant cast and thus the job is absolutely no different then things like we have with DRK where they have magical themed abilities that do AoE etc.

Not necessarily. In the case of DRK, putting on and dropping grit doesn't change how the DRK plays, and really only affects Blood Weapon.

The principle behind Grit could apply to a mage tank by changing how that class plays when tanking vs how they play when not taking. Tank stance could reduce/remove casting times while lowering potency (tank stances already reduce damage dealt), and dropping tank stance would give those skills their full cast times along with full potency.

If you want a comparison, think of it like the shouts in Skyrim. You could just settle for using Fus to push back an enemy instantly, or stand still and do the full Fus-Ro-Da to blow them away. Applying the mage tank concept on that would be that in tank mode your spell is basically just Fus, while in non-tank mode your spell is the full Fus-Ro-Da.

[Shippuu]

With all this bickering, people are forgetting one fundamental rule of FFXIV. No one wants to play as a tank.

How are people forgetting this when it's brought up pretty much every page by people wanting SAM dps?

This line of thought also completely glosses over the numerous other benefits to adding another tank job even if it doesn't increase the tank population (which is just untrue as DRK has indeed inticed players who had never tanked before to at least try it.) It doesn't need them to stay as a tank to have a positive benefit on the game's health. A new tank leveling through the dungeons provides queue pops that wouldn't have been there before.

Starting to sound like a broken record here, but people with this mentality seem to never realise the negative side to if you let tanks get stale and not offer anything new. The tank numbers will go down. If you can't increase the tank numbers you at least want them to stay the same. But offering only new jobs for say the dps role will only shoot themselves in the foot.

Sometimes all it takes to get people to try something new is putting it in a shiny new wrapper. They never know if they might like tanking if they are uninterested in the current lineup. I was the same way before I tried tanking in another game and found out I enjoyed it. Not to mention the other benefits such as giving tank players more variety, giving them another job to level through dungeons thus providing more queues in the long run etc.

Sitting there and accepting that there will always be a shortage of tanks does not mean you don't do what you can to try and alleviate the issue in any way you can when the game needs something that important in order to sustain itself.

[MagiusNecros]

With all this bickering, people are forgetting one fundamental rule of FFXIV. No one wants to play as a tank.

It's more "I don't want to be responsible for anything the entire instance". Which most cases you could go with a a Tank and Healer and clear content. Since they are the only ones with a lot of responsibility. The only thing the DPS has to do is dodge shit and deal damage. And sometimes they fail at even that.

The only reason I've seen for SAM to be DPS is because people want a DPS with a Sword for aesthetically reasons. And offer little room for unique concepts and think very little about what SAM can offer compared to the other DPS classes. If they do piercing DMG it's a backseat Dragoon. If it's Slashing it will be a beefier Ninja.

Which honestly if RDM makes it as a bonafide Magic Tank I'll let SAM be whatever it wants. Quite tired of the same shit for every other class.

[EdwinLi]

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Not to sound rude but...

You should provide a long term reason why SAM may affect queues in the long term for Max Level/Endgame which is where the Tank Job will be truely tested.

The queue time for content considered old and only used for Leveling are not something a lot of people take seriously when they play as a Tank Job from my experience with players who only are playing a Tank Job for the sake of leveling it and then dropping them at max level or just testing out the Job before they decide to stay with it for Max Level Content. The only real benefit for shorter old content queues is mostly just for leveling a class/job faster that is a DPS class/Job.

There is also the question of what will deem SAM a successful Tank Job because what I deem a successful Tank Job is not simply by attracting new players into the Tank Job role but also if a decent amount of players actually stay and play as SAM. The last thing we need is SAM to become the Machinist of Tank Jobs where only the Vanity of using a Katana and SAM armor is keeping players playing as SAM while the Majority abandons SAM for the other older Tank Jobs because their gameplay is the same but depends less on a slight issue with their gameplay such as how Machinist is considered a RNG depended Bard.