SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[EdwinLi]

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Not to sound rude but...

You should provide a long term reason why SAM may affect queues in the long term for Max Level/Endgame which is where the Tank Job will be truely tested.

The queue time for content considered old and only used for Leveling are not something a lot of people take seriously when they play as a Tank Job from my experience with players who only are playing a Tank Job for the sake of leveling it and then dropping them at max level or just testing out the Job before they decide to stay with it for Max Level Content. The only real benefit for shorter old content queues is mostly just for leveling a class/job faster that is a DPS class/Job.

There is also the question of what will deem SAM a successful Tank Job because what I deem a successful Tank Job is not simply by attracting new players into the Tank Job role but also if a decent amount of players actually stay and play as SAM. The last thing we need is SAM to become the Machinist of Tank Jobs where only the Vanity of using a Katana and SAM armor is keeping players playing as SAM while the Majority abandons SAM for the other older Tank Jobs because their gameplay is the same but depends less on a slight issue with their gameplay such as how Machinist is considered a RNG depended Bard.

[DWolfwood]

Not to sound rude but...

You should provide a long term reason why SAM may affect queues in the long term for Max Level/Endgame which is where the Tank Job will be truely tested.

In regards to long term, I don't think there needs to be more beyond the realization that there will be people who start this game and look at the jobs, and they will be drawn to certain jobs without giving thought to "roles." Tanking is not as bad as some think, and it certainly is not boring. There's the chance to change the misconceptions about it with brand new players, and we will certainly see numerous, "SAM(SHO) New to Tanking, Need Tips" threads.

There is also the question of what will deem SAM a successful Tank Job because what I deem a successful Tank Job is not simply by attracting new players into the Tank Job role but also if a decent amount of players actually stay and play as SAM.

Currently, Warrior tanks make up the majority of tank players. A little more than 50% I would wager, and I think a Samurai tank would cut into these numbers. What defines a successful tank in my opinion is similar, and I have faith in the development team to make a very fluid and solid samurai tank that is fun to play.

Looking at how you'd define DRK's success, I'll put it this way: I loved PLD in XI, it was actually my favorite tank ever, but as the game evolved, I was forced out of it. I switched over to a WAR main for end game tanking because all that was needed was an initial aggro before we just zerged everything down in a matter of minutes/seconds. In 1.x, I was a WAR main once again (actually thought it would be a heavy DPS based on the MRD description, but seems fate had something else in mind for me) and was one of the few that saw no need in going PLD, proving to many that WAR was actually an amazing tank contrary to what they'd believed. Going into 2.x, again, I was stuck on WAR, showing how amazing it was. 2.1 onward it was not even a question and took me awhile to dispel the myths of WAR that many had on my server.

The reason I bring all this up is because I had grown pretty tired of WAR, but I'm a tank at heart. DRK gave me something new and I finally found a new main. I've been a main since it came out and hope to see more positive changes for the job. There is no doubt in my mind that a SAM tank would be a success in these regards. Rest assured that if RDM or BLU had come out as tanks, I would still be a WAR main right now and be pretty disgruntled.

Would it be so bad to get Samurai as a tank, Red Mage as a DPS, and Geomancer as Healer (melee style with a double voulge, think WoW shaman), this next expansion (or two)?

I just don't see many people demanding that we get Geomancer. I think it could definitely be a healer and should probably be because healer options are limited, but I imagine it'll happen in 5.0 at the earliest. I personally see RDM as a great healer option considering the limited ones available, contrary to what some may think. While I don't think a healer in melee range will ever happen when you consider fights like A7S and Ifrit EX, I think RDM has the versatility to have a melee DPS stance, which I think a lot of players would love as well. The ability to DPS w/o purely relying on spells would probably be appreciated and all the melee-RDM ideas could be applied there. I can also see it as a support melee, but I think DNC should have that role in the future. DNC fails at being a healer/tank for the same reason I refute a RDM/BLU tank and why we can't have a pure melee healer. A chakram DNC doesn't sound very interesting to me either if you have them dancing constantly for heals. I think Dancing should inspire us to fight harder and better, not mend our wounds.

Having a RDM as a healer in duty would not interfere with its solo-ability, which I think would be its obvious strength as a "jack-of-all-trades, master of none."

[EdwinLi]

Rest assured that if RDM or BLU had come out as tanks, I would still be a WAR main right now and be pretty disgruntled.

I mean no offense but you should not use yourself as a example as this makes people believe your support for SAM Tank Job is a personal nature rather than one based on possible outcomes we are assuming in this discussion.

Back on topic:
We do not really know how well SAM Tank or a Red Mage Tank will attract, keep, or increase Tank population as people do have different views on things and different desired gameplay styles. Even if they make SAM decent enough it may not affect the Tank population to have a noticable effect in the long term but simply shift a already existing percent of the Tank population into this new Tank Job and maybe a small increase but not enough for a noticable effect.

They also, as I have said before, must make a new Tank Job not outshine old Tank Jobs or else the game risk causing a old Job to be abandoned by already existing and future Tank job players.

[DWolfwood]

I mean no offense but you should not use yourself as a example as this makes people believe your support for SAM Tank Job is a personal nature rather than one based on possible outcomes we are assuming in this discussion.

Oh trust me, I realize it leaves me open for attack by putting out personal information, but personal experience is still a strong argument. This conversation keeps going in circles because the people who hate the idea of a SAM tank, keep bringing up silly arguments like, "it doesn't help queues" or "it brings no variety to tanks," and when they get disproved, we hear things like, "well that's not even important."


It does bring variety to tanks, and it will help queues.

Back on topic:
We do not really know how well SAM Tank or a Red Mage Tank will attract, keep, or increase Tank population as people do have different views on things and different desired gameplay styles.

You're right, we don't know exact numbers, nor do we need to. All we need to know are the obvious without lying to ourselves. It does help to have interesting tanks come out so that low level dungeon queues keep popping for new players who need them. At the endgame level, the percentage of players who stick with it will drop, just like every other job. It's also important to remember that there is a point in endgame statics where tanks are no longer needed, and DPS will be sought, but we are not at that point yet in regards to pure melee DPS. One could argue support jobs need help in this department at best.

They also, as I have said before, must make a new Tank Job not outshine old Tank Jobs or else the game risk causing a old Job to be abandoned by already existing and future Tank job players.

Samurai is not going to outshine PLD, WAR, nor DRK. It's merely going to provide a option for those that aren't playing the one most suited to their tastes at most. What we have right now are 3 options, and there are plenty like myself who will still love other themes more. Just like adding a Samurai DPS isn't going to magically make everyone stop playing Black Mage, Dragoon, etc. It's another silly argument. More variety is good. Not bad.

[Tanathya]

This conversation keeps going in circles because the people who hate the idea of a SAM tank, keep bringing up silly arguments.

Silly arguments because they're against yours. Because the "heavy armor only" isn't silly, or because the itemization issue would effectively be an issue. There are plenty of popular jobs that can become tanks, but then again, thinking a bit out of the box is quite hard for this game's community.

To me, RDM has a way bigger cool factor than SAM, and I'd make it my main if it becomes a tank, but I don't see giving DRK up for SAM if they're the same role. And that's because they'd be too similar already.

[DWolfwood]

Silly arguments because they're against yours.

-"Adding a new and interesting tank that everyone wants to play won't help leveling queues" is a silly argument.
-"Samurai brings no variety to tanks" is a silly argument.

Because the "heavy armor only" isn't silly

I've only brought this up in regards to another silly argument where people have said "most samurai couldn't afford armor." I actually want both Shogun(Tank) and Ronin(DPS) jobs.

... or because the itemization issue would effectively be an issue.

This is an actual serious hurdle they'll have if people want a RDM tank. It can be done, but the reward doesn't outweigh the effort in my honest opinion. Feel free to press this subject and I'll elaborate.

There are plenty of popular jobs that can become tanks

So you think there are plenty jobs, but samurai? I'm confused. Getting into silly argument territory again.

To me, RDM has a way bigger cool factor than SAM, and I'd make it my main if it becomes a tank...

So make a thread. Don't use that as a reason why SAM shouldn't be a tank.

...they'd be too similar already.

Silly argument.

I want Samurai dps so it can have a cool bushido mechanic. I feel like Yoshi's team cuts corners with tanks. Or at least has a hard time with them. DRK for example. Once they have an aggro combo, they pretty much say "good enough". I feel like they try to explore so much more with DPS classes.

I mean fair enough I guess. I still want both tank and DPS samurai jobs.

Elaborate on this issue you have with DRK, because as far as I'm concerned, MNK/DRG/NIN are all about keeping up GL/BotD/Huton and DoTs. NIN alone has the interesting Mudra mechanic. I find WAR and DRK to be far more interesting.

[Tanathya]

It all comes down to you dismissing other people's (very) valid ideas just for the sake of trying to reinforce your SAM tank idea.

[Alacran]

I only mention Geomancer as a sudo Shaman since there are members of the Ala Mihgan resistance that are classified as such. Given the much believed area that is to be the focus of the next expansion, i felt that it made sense that Shaman could in theory work as a Geomancer imo. Seeing as Blade Dancers (Dancer, RDM, BLU,) and Lancers (Templar) are also in the mix i feel there are a few options to choose from.

[ADVSS]

Not to sound rude but...


There is also the question of what will deem SAM a successful Tank Job because what I deem a successful Tank Job is not simply by attracting new players into the Tank Job role but also if a decent amount of players actually stay and play as SAM. The last thing we need is SAM to become the Machinist of Tank Jobs where only the Vanity of using a Katana and SAM armor is keeping players playing as SAM while the Majority abandons SAM for the other older Tank Jobs because their gameplay is the same but depends less on a slight issue with their gameplay such as how Machinist is considered a RNG depended Bard.

They can definitely do this if they dont go shoving in 2 or 3 job mashups onto it just because. For instance an aoe provoke for "those moments" in a trash pull, when youre raised at 0tp and 0mp and the mobs are just mauling your buddies cause teddy t heals was dps'ing lol or a gap closer on the GCD. Then theyll have to look at balancing the job for real raid use ala no more of this reprisal gimmick, realize warrior is successful because its utility is available on demand as ot or mt

[Shippuu]

Not to sound rude but...
You should provide a long term reason why SAM may affect queues in the long term for Max Level/Endgame which is where the Tank Job will be truely tested.

There honestly doesn't need to be a long term reason. As I've said time and time again, there are more benefits than just "Increase number of tank players." Other forms of incentive are what will likely fit that, and it applies to all tanks, not just relying on one job to come in and somehow save the day.

You have a very high expectation as to what you're saying SAM tank must accomplish to be successfull. In the end, it's an option that will entice players who normally don't tank into tanking. It can be a gateway for players to try tanking which in turn can result in them trying other tanks even if they dislike SAM. It's another tank job for career tanks to level through content providing additional queue pops. It's more variety for tanks to allow them to not get bored within their role and give them more options.

All of these things are worth adding it to the game. But apparently if it doesn't fix every problem that plagues the game and the role it's not good enough for you which is something I can't help you with.

Adding it as a DPS will only tilt the already unbalanced issues even further, making DPS queues longer, adding variety to a role that already has over twice the variety the other roles have. Even luring away people from more important roles into the DPS.

Tell me Edwin, what benefits does adding it as a DPS offer? Since you demand perks to adding it as a tank, please list how adding it as a DPS will help the lifespan and health of this game. I'll wait.