SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[ShinMetsu]

Even with the argument that we absolutely and desperately need more tanks to make queues easier for DPS and assuming that it is an absolute necessity to do this,
I still think that Samurai as tank is a bad choice, even if it's popular. As i said, i don't doubt that some people will switch to tank full time on the long run, I don't think it will be a significant amount.

Rather than that, I still think the idea i mentioned of a Runefencer / Red Mage type of tank to be way more efficient for this purpose. I know it might sound weird when i bring up Red Mage for this,
but at least in my opinion the concept of a magical tank that works with putting up barriers to mitigate damage, in a similar fashion as to the Scholar's Adloquium shields sounds really interesting.
These wouldn't necessarily be cooldowns, but abilities that can be triggered upon weaponskill execution, since they are jack of all trades, after all. Offensive abilities could also be an alternative instead of defensive shields.

The reason i think this path to be way more efficient is because it would bring something entirely new to the tanking lineup, something that would also be interesting for people interested in caster-type gameplay.
We already have 3 melee tanks that are only capable of attacking with physical attacks.
All pretty much all of them rely on block / parry procs besides defensive cooldowns, War is most interesting even in my opinion with Inner Beast being a form of mitigation that doesn't rely on a cooldown really.

Adding such a tank that relies on magic for defense and offense would contribute more to adding more career tanks in the long run in my opinion.

[DWolfwood]

I still think the idea i mentioned of a Runefencer / Red Mage type of tank to be way more efficient for this purpose. I know it might sound weird when i bring up Red Mage for this,
but at least in my opinion the concept of a magical tank that works with putting up barriers to mitigate damage, in a similar fashion as to the Scholar's Adloquium shields sounds really interesting...


The reason i think this path to be way more efficient is because it would bring something entirely new to the tanking lineup, something that would also be interesting for people interested in caster-type gameplay...



Adding such a tank that relies on magic for defense and offense would contribute more to adding more career tanks in the long run in my opinion.

The idea of a RDM/RUN tank just doesn't sound entirely new to be honest. Those classes use swords and magic, yeah, but so do PLD and DRK. If we look at the big picture and assume that SE doesn't intend leave them where they're at, we can assume that they'll continue to get refinement into their FF-stereotypes.

I think a dual-katana wielding SAM brings much more variety to tanking classes.

[Nalien]

The idea of a RDM/RUN tank just doesn't sound entirely new to be honest. Those classes use swords and magic, yeah, but so do PLD and DRK. If we look at the big picture and assume that SE doesn't intend leave them where they're at, we can assume that they'll continue to get refinement into their FF-stereotypes.

Well, I think Red Mage has to use a Epee type weapon, which while technically a sword, I'd say it would benefit from piercing rather than slashing... Rune Fencer? Eh... If we clone XI sure, that's just Dark Knight, but why not do something different? Have them actually use Runes as weapons, somewhat similar to Astrologian I guess...

I still think Blue Mage would be the ideal next tank though, and that has plenty of weapons types to choose from... Maces, Rods, Whips, Forks... There is potential there for it to be visibly and mechanically different from existing tanks...

I think a dual-katana wielding SAM brings much more variety to tanking classes.

While it would be a tank, wouldn't that be too similar to Ninja? Two eastern themed Jobs dual wielding blades... and don't get me started on how disappointing dual wielding is at the moment anyway, Paladin has it right, Ninja sucks and Thancred got it right in 3.1... I want to equip two weapons, not one weapon that just clones itself in the offhand...

I'd quite like Samurai to mainly use a bow, personally... Bow in the main hand, Dexterity as the main stat, Katana in the offhand slot... That can be a DPS or tank TBH, I think Ranging/Scouting gear is more thematically appropriate for Samurai... A few Fending sets are, but most really aren't... Mostly the Law sets, but I think the Ranging Law set is perfect for Samurai... Similar thing with the Blue Mage suggestion (Clerics Stance style ability for tanking), but a ranged tank, even if it isn't tanking at range, would be somewhat different IMO... It would be really great at pulls and grabbing adds for example... Obviously it has the Katana as well, but I'd reserve that for "special" attacks, your typical flashy Samurai attacks rather than the meat of their combos... Either a true ranged DPS, rather than a weak ranged DPS with MP/TP Songs, or a ranged tank... /shrugs I can expand on that concept if anyone wants, this is a thread about Samurai, rather than physical/magical tanks, after all...

[ShinMetsu]

The idea of a RDM/RUN tank just doesn't sound entirely new to be honest. Those classes use swords and magic, yeah, but so do PLD and DRK. If we look at the big picture and assume that SE doesn't intend leave them where they're at, we can assume that they'll continue to get refinement into their FF-stereotypes.

I feel like i've been misunderstood. Also i don't really see PLD or DRK as magical tanks really, they have like 2-3 spells each, that is even with cross-classing for PLD.
But counting Flash or Unleash as magic feels almost like being cheated imo.

The way i suggested would work is that you would actually have damaging spells, like e.g. Fire or Thunder etc.
Using weapon skills or abilities would allow you to use these spells as oGCDs to weave inbetween your weapon skills.
Same with defensive magic spells, e.g. Phalanx or even a heal, maybe some other sort of damage barrier spell to mitigate damage, especially for tank busters or general mitigation.
You could have a Chaincast or Dualcast to double up the spell you're casting, which would make for either a strong offense or a strong defense, depending what you wanna opt for and if you're MTing or OTing.
This concept would fit RDM really well imo, seeing how they are supposed to use Combat Melee attacks, and both Offensive and Defensive/Healing Magic.
Although i do admit, i don't see Red Mage as a tank lore wise really, but maybe they can use another class for this concept.
And this would definitely be something new that actually uses magic to tank, unlike PLD or DRK.

Also, i don't know where else i'd see Red Mage though,
As a DPS, how is Healing gonna come in play for RDM DPS? It's a DPS's job to focus on DPS, having them do healing too is gonna make it very undesirable as a DPS to take into battle imo.
As a Healer, well that alone clashes with RDM's melee capabilities it's supposed to have.

I see that some people want SAM to replace WAR because they're tired of being stuck on WAR as offtank, but i'd rather not see something similar to what we already have and get some sort of variety instead.
Of course adding SAM to the DPS line-up doesn't add a lot of variety either and you could argue that adding a magical melee DPS (RDM) would be an interesting concept too, considering it would make Foe Requiem a lot more powerful.

I still stand by my opinion that a Magic-wielding tank would bolster the tanking ranks more in the long run, because it would be something that attracts players interested in magic instead of physical gameplay.

[Krissey]

I still stand by my opinion that a Magic-wielding tank would bolster the tanking ranks more in the long run, because it would be something that attracts players interested in magic instead of physical gameplay.

I agree - it would be something completely unique and different. I wouldn't mind seeing Samurai as a Tank or a DPS or RDM or /anything/ as long as it's got a cool...cooldown based priority system. I'm soooo tired of 1,2,3 enmity combo 1,2,3 1,2,3 1,2,3 all the tanks play the same...you have your "utility" combo for it's tertiary benefits (Storm's Path, Storm's Eye, Riot Blade, Soul Eater etc..) then your bread and butter high potency enmity combo that you spam over and over. Weave in defensives...weave in your AOE moves...yawn...

If we got something like a WoW Paladin or Warrior where you hit abilities as they came off cooldown in no particular order..or even like that red mage idea...or just literally anything at all different please...

[DWolfwood]

I don't get where people are hearing Yoshi P confirmed it to be a DPS, source please? For starters the job isn't even confirmed... the only thing I recall is an interview talking about how he would like to see SAM and looked at the 2 perspectives of tank and dps for the job.

Yeah, it's exactly what you're thinking. People misunderstanding an already bad translation:

"Regarding Samurai
They had an idea to make Samurai a tank. However because the Heavensward (I think they call it Souten no Ishigard in Jp) theme is dark, they felt a dark knight was more fitting for the role.
Inside of YoshiP the Samurai feels more like a DPS than a tank...".

He's saying that the image of a robe-wearing iaido master is strong as a DPS, and I agree. It's part of the reason why I want 2 samurai jobs. I really wanna see the "Shogun," heavily armored samurai more than a robe wearing iaido master, and Yoshida believes Shogun to be a tank. Rightfully so according to most in this thread as well.

I feel like i've been misunderstood. Also i don't really see PLD or DRK as magical tanks really, they have like 2-3 spells each, that is even with cross-classing for PLD.

I actually do get what you have in mind, but what I'm saying is that it really isn't that unique or new. PLD and DRK can be presumed to be getting new abilities in the future, and I would rather see them work with their identities to make them stronger and giving them more magic, PLD specifically. PLD already has Cure, Stoneskin, Raise, and Protect from CNJ that it hardly does anything with. Though considering they already have a healing spell, I think they should get an ability to speed up their cast time so that they can use Stoneskin more. Stoneskin is essentially the magic shield you're referring to. They should also be able to use Raise as well since it's a slow cast anyways and would be nearly impossible to pull off. PLDs are not just linked with healing/white magic in every FF game, but in pretty much every fantasy game from Ultima to Dungeons & Dragons, so I think they really need to work on it a bit more.

As for DRK, I'd like to see some Dread Spikes type of ability, and in regards to how similar it would be to your RDM/BLU idea; what I mean is that this new caster tank when you boiled it down passed the fact that they're just pressing mitigation buttons and attack/enmity inducing buttons, their core mechanic would be MP management, which is exactly what DRK is already. This is on top of the fact that RDM is very closely associated with a sword, and while you could give them a piercing attribute, at the end of the day you still got something not very unique that took an extreme amount of effort to make work since RDM can't really wear tank gear. The only difference between making it BLU instead of RDM would be that BLU possibly has more weapon options, but every other point remains.

While it would be a tank, wouldn't that be too similar to Ninja? Two eastern themed Jobs dual wielding blades...

That's kinda the point really though. It allows for 2 things: a tank that dual wields and the potential to still bring out a samurai (ronin, robe wearing) to the DPS side of things. I really don't see any redundancy here, personally. Just more variety.

...don't get me started on how disappointing dual wielding is at the moment anyway, Paladin has it right, Ninja sucks and Thancred got it right in 3.1... I want to equip two weapons, not one weapon that just clones itself in the offhand...

I'm fine with the way they have it now. While yes, it would be fun to use two different weapons, it makes playing those jobs a lot more difficult due to the extra hurdle of gearing them up. It's exactly the reason why they don't do this, although I guess they could make specific offhand katanas for NIN like PLD, but it just seems unnecessary imo.

I'd quite like Samurai to mainly use a bow, personally... Bow in the main hand, Dexterity as the main stat, Katana in the offhand slot... That can be a DPS or tank TBH...

I'd rather just see this applied to a special ability, like WAR's Tomahawk. Katanas are the "soul" of a samurai, so it doesn't make sense to me that they'd be an offhand. In XI and other games it works because you can use multiple weapons (like this game should be about.)

[ADVSS]

I agree - it would be something completely unique and different. I wouldn't mind seeing Samurai as a Tank or a DPS or RDM or /anything/ as long as it's got a cool...cooldown based priority system. I'm soooo tired of 1,2,3 enmity combo 1,2,3 1,2,3 1,2,3 all the tanks play the same...you have your "utility" combo for it's tertiary benefits (Storm's Path, Storm's Eye, Riot Blade, Soul Eater etc..) then your bread and butter high potency enmity combo that you spam over and over. Weave in defensives...weave in your AOE moves...yawn...

If we got something like a WoW Paladin or Warrior where you hit abilities as they came off cooldown in no particular order..or even like that red mage idea...or just literally anything at all different please...

This is exactly why i initially opted to just make it a dps, with dragoon level armor. People suggest a dpsing tank, thats warrior. It will never deal more damage than warrior or itll get nerfed. we already have a dps tank thats in between warrior and paladin. So there goes tha. Maybe it could deal less damage than paladin and have more defense and raid utility to balance it? That aint a samurai at all to me