SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[Ciri_Wolf]

Not really sure anyone forgot. In fact, there are other examples, but not sure what you're getting at. I myself want people to consider why we can or cannot have both a Shogun and Ronin job in the game rather than all the petty "Sam is a DPS because Yoshida said so" which isn't even true and the, "can we discuss more 'original' tanks in a SAM thread please?"

What do you mean? This whole topic is all of us discussing what Samurai could be. You made it with that intention, so that's what I'm getting at. Nothing at all says "Yoshi-P must strictly adhere to historically accurate samurai when making a class." Dark Knight and Dragoon don't even exist, so there's no reason Samurai in a fantasy MMO have to be anything. They could be as unrealistic as his team wants it to be. It's fun to discuss either way.

[DWolfwood]

What do you mean? This whole topic is all of us discussing what Samurai could be. You made it with that intention, so that's what I'm getting at.

All you said was:

Edit: Also, everyone seems to conveniently forget the series has already had a clothed Samurai without armor. Auron.

So, I just don't really know what you're getting at here. Are you saying that because Auron, a character that is an homage to Ronin, wears light armor, that we should get a light-armored Samurai? Like I said, no one has forgotten any of this. One could say that you've forgotten that he's not specifically a Samurai, but an homage, whereas Cyan is quite literally a samurai in FF6, but it just so happens that in that universe, he wears knight armor. Auron was a warrior monk if you really wanna get into it.

Samurai have inspired many ideas for FF over the years, and there's a big variation between the Ronin types and the armor-clad types. None of it is any reason why it shouldn't be DPS or Tank. Everyone is too caught up in the little things instead of just looking at whether this game can handle 2 Samurai. Are there any DPS who after getting a Ronin job, would be pissed if they announced a Shogun tank? "Why?" is my question.

Dark Knight and Dragoon don't even exist, so there's no reason Samurai in a fantasy MMO have to be anything. They could be as unrealistic as his team wants it to be. It's fun to discuss either way.

Just for the record, Dark Knights and Dragoons are fantasy interpretations of real life things. I'm not saying things have to be historically accurate, and I've never said that because that would be boring. What I've done is bring in factual evidence when people make false, outrageous claims about "real life."

All that said there is no, real, true "Samurai" nor is there a real, true, "Knight" as many-a-video and paper have explained.

Samurai and Knights were a definable thing. Yes, they all had armor. The thing is, they didn't wear this armor all the time. It was almost exclusively reserved for the battlefield in the case of samurai. Things do get more complicated when you realize that the samurai were real people and could fall on hard times if they or their lord lost a battle, and they could thus be forced to sell their armor sometimes to make ends meet if they were no longer formally a samurai. In samurai culture, the "soul" of the samurai was his sword and many would rather die than sell it, some however would rather live than keep it. Samurai and Knights who no longer served a lord would lose their status, but like we say in the US about Marines as an example, "once a marine, always a marine," one could argue that they were still Samurai and Knights in all but title.

As for correct representations, yes there are tons of ways to portray them. My question is, do you think that if we got a Shogun tank, would a Ronin DPS be too much, considering we'd have a Samurai tank and two eastern DPS already?

[Ciri_Wolf]

All you said was:



So, I just don't really know what you're getting at here. Are you saying that because Auron, a character that is an homage to Ronin, wears light armor, that we should get a light-armored Samurai?

What I'm getting at is that FFXIV's Samurai doesn't need to be heavily armored since FF series has already done Samurai without it. We could get either. And why would anyone be pissed if both DPS players and Tank players got a samurai class? That's a moot point anyway since Yoshi-P isn't going to do it, anyway. If we had it my way, there would be 2 samurai classes like you proposed. It won't happen so there's not a lot to discuss. I've also never used any of my reasoning to prove Samurai could or could not be DPS or Tank.

[DWolfwood]

...why would anyone be pissed if both DPS players and Tank players got a samurai class? That's a moot point anyway since Yoshi-P isn't going to do it, anyway. If we had it my way, there would be 2 samurai classes like you proposed. It won't happen so there's not a lot to discuss.

Pessimist much? The whole purpose of this thread is to get people to support the idea of both because if enough people support it, it will happen. Contrary to what the people who claim that Yoshida said, "sam is a dps" say, what Yoshida really said was that he would look to us to help him decide what to do with samurai.

Don't feel like Yoshida and his team pay no attention to what the players want. That's the whole reason why these forums exist in the first place.

[Ciri_Wolf]

stuff

I don't know how he would make 2 classes of Samurai after he already admitted making so many classes was hard to do. Why would their team waste resources on making 2 roles for one job instead of making 2 jobs? Lots of people want Dancer or Red Mage. Like I said, if it were up to me we'd have two samurai. One would be heavy armor tank while the other would be a more romanticized version. Then they'd even feel unique. I can't see it happening, no matter how much I'd want it, but anything is possible. It'd be a first for XIV.

Also, if they listened to every single thing we wanted, DRK would be a DPS right now. Maybe we could influence what role the SAM will be, but I doubt they're gonna make multiple.

[Tanathya]

Don't feel like Yoshida and his team pay no attention to what the players want. That's the whole reason why these forums exist in the first place.

Also, if they listened to every single thing we wanted, DRK would be a DPS right now.

They made a poll when Yoshida took over, and they didn't listen. What Ciri said just there is proof of that very same poll. So no, they don't really listen to the players, or they wouldn't be pulling the "PS3 limitations" excuse so often.

[DWolfwood]

They made a poll when Yoshida took over, and they didn't listen. What Ciri said just there is proof of that very same poll. So no, they don't really listen to the players, or they wouldn't be pulling the "PS3 limitations" excuse so often.

Getting way off topic here, but thanks to that poll we got SMN next with a new healer, then we got NIN, and they got an idea where of how to design the next new race, Au Ra. Players really wanted DRK too, so we got that as well.

Convince me why 2 or even 3 DPS jobs "From the East" is too many. After all, isn't 3 "Western" Tanks too many? Shouldn't Dark Knight have been a "Western" DPS because we already had 2 "Western" Tanks? This makes literally no sense.

You really gotta work on your reading comprehension man. Go back and look at the very first post in this thread and you'll see that I want a Samurai DPS and Tank.

Also Rogue/Ninja is never called Thief in FFXIV...so I'm not sure why you brought that up.

It's actually referred to it in the class quests, and they explain why they're not the "thieves" guild. That said, the reason I brought it up is because it was always referred to as "thief" in preliminary talks before the class was announced. Much like samurai now.

However based on common media portrayal etc.

You really gotta just give this up. lol

So again - is having all the "Western" DPS and Tanks too many "Western" DPS and Tanks? Why does the influence of the region in game or IRL matter /at all/?

Because people use the argument saying that tanks have too many "swords" or "already have a 2h sword," so my question is "would a sam tank and dps be too much considering there are already two eastern themed dps?" If the answer is no, that dps can accommodate it, then I ask those people to please like my first post so that we can gain traction on this idea and bring two samurai to the game.

[Aaliyahrose]

Samurai's key ability in all FF games has always been Bushido, or Zanshin. (Shin-Zantetsuken maybe?")
You can expect some sort of lineup of abilities from Samurai here.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/L...#Katana_Skills

[Shippuu]

You guys can't think outside the box is all I'm getting out of all of this. Not everyone, and especially those who say heavier armor = tanks only, and tanks = heavy armor only. Can I (we) have some much, much needed variety, please?

Thinking outside the box is all well and dandy, but the problem is you can come along with all kinds of wildish and creative ideas but this is a business, with things like finances and development time that needs to be considered. Variety is good, but it also comes with far more work and a balancing nightmare. SE has been adamant that they want everything to be balanced, to the point a lot of jobs are very similar to each other, so that no one job is left out of content. You start trying crazy things and you quickly run into situations where some things are far better than others. So you can say it's a lack of creativity, but at the same time, it's addressing the situation with a realistic viewpoint on the necessary drawbacks which come with left field ideas.

In this game, tanks = heavy armor. If they want to add more tanks while also preventing a much larger work load for their staff then tanks will continue to wear heavy fending armor. So following that logic you look at which requested FF jobs also have a history of wearing heavy armor and then your list gets pretty small considering most of them are some variant of knight. Samurai happens to be one with a history of heavy armor as well as defending/protecting others while still offering a unique flair to it, and thus it's a pretty logical choice given what few options you have.

So again, in a perfect world, every class would be wildly crazy and different, and it's fun to come up with those kinds of ideas, but if you're going to look at things seriously and take in the actual factors, it becomes a lot more cut and dry.

Edit: Also, everyone seems to conveniently forget the series has already had a clothed Samurai without armor. Auron.

You're right, Auron wore robes mostly, but his "katana" was also a greatsword as well. But even then, let's take a look at Auron.

He was the guardian of summoner Braska, and caretaker of Tidus later. Auron's specialty are the break abilities that lower enemies' stats, and guard abilities to shield his comrades from enemy attacks. His early stat growth is based around high Strength, Defense and HP.

Hmmm....Defends/shields others, has high STR, VIT, and Defense...what role of the trinity has emphasis on those traits I wonder? So he may be lightly armored in appearance, but in practice he's definitely in line with being a tank. The same goes for Bravely Default's Swordmaster.

[Ciri_Wolf]

You're right, Auron wore robes mostly, but his "katana" was also a greatsword as well. But even then, let's take a look at Auron.

He was the guardian of summoner Braska, and caretaker of Tidus later. Auron's specialty are the break abilities that lower enemies' stats, and guard abilities to shield his comrades from enemy attacks. His early stat growth is based around high Strength, Defense and HP.

Hmmm....Defends/shields others, has high STR, VIT, and Defense...what role of the trinity has emphasis on those traits I wonder? So he may be lightly armored in appearance, but in practice he's definitely in line with being a tank. The same goes for Bravely Default's Swordmaster.

But none of that matters with how he looks. Which was my only point.