SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[AlphaFox]

My only experience with a dark knight was from Illusion of Gaia so all I gathered was, magic power, big sword. Still hoping for that Freedan look.

The fact someone else remembers that game is enough for me to love you :3

On the note about Samurai and "fighting head on" whose to say they won't be the Risk vs reward type where your required to be in front for some skills to do more damage. I know Ninja has one skill that requires it (not sure on others at the top of my head) so they could still have to time it between cleaves or tank busters. Granted I realize this would put them in a slight dis-advantage for some like with Midas 5 Preys if they end up in front (less time to run compared to those behind) but that is where learning your job and the fight combines to optimize which skills to use and when.

[Jhett_Magnum]

Just remember the interview with yoshi and how he said if Samurai goes the Tank route it would be called "Shogun" and if DPS would be called "Samurai".

Can anyone explain why he associates those roles with said names?

[EdwinLi]

Just remember the interview with yoshi and how he said if Samurai goes the Tank route it would be called "Shogun" and if DPS would be called "Samurai".

Can anyone explain why he associates those roles with said names?

Shoguns are usually the Samurai with higher stats thus having access to more fancy and heavy armor people tend to picture as "Samurai Armor".


Samurai, based on their stats in society and/or what they can obtain has their armor vary in type as Millerna said

As for armour, they've used anything from simple cloth to plate to a combination of plate, chain, splint and cloth in a single set of armour.

Not all Samurai had access or used heavy plated type armor nor have access to it.

[Alacran]

Samurai X, Rurouni Kenshin, Samurai Champloo, 7 Samurai, etc... We all know the trope. They kill their enemies in a single blow 10 v 1 and everyone standing nearby is shocked and amazed at their l33t skillz0rs. It's tantamount to DPS - killing so quickly and so precisely the enemy can't fight back.

Whether it looks funny in game mechanics or not is irrelevant. I believe the fantasy they're going for would be a swift striking DPS that probably deals lots of burst damage so against lesser creatures and foes out in world/trash packs they'll tear right through them with ease. Monks, NIN, Dragoons all "fight from the front" out in the world.

Traditionally Pikemen would line up like this: So do Dragoons seem silly because they're not lined up in front of the monsters tanking stabbing them in the face?

Having watched many of the anime you listed i still do not recall Back stabbing assassin Samurai in them. Though the idea of a Samurai Tank gap closer being a dash through with a 1-2 second stun to turn the enemy away for DPS positionals sounds rather cool.

As for your point on Pikemen , yes that is a valid point well made. I have always felt that since the only Dragoons in historical existence were the mounted cavalry force, I believed the idea was more of a polearm specialist.

Something more in the vain of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS7sExRrCbw

An Anime reference should the later not be sufficient. (Spoiler Warning: These scenes are of duels featuring spear fighting in the Anime series - Seirei No Moribito, as each fight is concluded, story elements are reveled)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al1CpCfSEHo


(Source:http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_Knight)
Dark knights, also known as black knights, were a minority group of knights who refused to serve lords or kings. Instead they either looted and raided, hunted bounties, or lived off the charity from the more humble folk, in much the same manner as a Japanese ronin. As they had no master, and thus no squire, they would paint their armor a signature black color to prevent rust and damage. Dark knights were considered by many a necessary evil, as they would protect villages and lesser people from invaders and bandits, but would also cause problems in the regions they dwelt in to sustain themselves.

Back on topic however the idea of the Samurai you have explained has always been when the Hero is facing a small mook army of no comparable skill. At 60 I can walk out in a low level zone and "kill (my) enemies in a single blow 10 v 1 and everyone standing nearby is shocked and amazed at (my) l33t skillz0rs". That's hardly justification to identify the role of a melee class/job.

Ninjas fought through guerrilla tactics specifically to turn the tables on their Heavily Armored Samurai opponents often not fighting but only gathering information. Monks used their training not only of their bodies but their knowledge of anatomy to strike precise points of their enemies form any and all angles. Dragoons are a mounted cavalry unit in the British armed forces.

[Krissey]

Shoguns are usually the Samurai with higher stats thus having access to more fancy and heavy armor people tend to picture as "Samurai Armor".


Samurai, based on their stats in society and/or what they can obtain has their armor vary in type as Millerna said



Not all Samurai had access or used heavy plated type armor nor have access to it.

Actually that's essentially true of all fighters from European Knights to Norse Raiders (Vikings). Essentially more money = more protection. Not every Knight was in "Shining Armor" (Full Plate) because that stuff was crazy expensive. Some would wear anything from again padded leather, thick cloth, chain mail, splint mail and anything and everything in between.

[Krissey]

Back on topic however the idea of the Samurai you have explained has always been when the Hero is facing a small mook army of no comparable skill. At 60 I can walk out in a low level zone and "kill (my) enemies in a single blow 10 v 1 and everyone standing nearby is shocked and amazed at (my) l33t skillz0rs". That's hardly justification to identify the role of a melee class/job.

Ninjas fought through guerrilla tactics specifically to turn the tables on their Heavily Armored Samurai opponents often not fighting but only gathering information. Monks used their training not only of their bodies but their knowledge of anatomy to strike precise points of their enemies form any and all angles. Dragoons are a mounted cavalry unit in the British armed forces.

I don't think the direction in other forms of media matters because in movies, anime, television, re-enactments, etc... there does not exist a trinity of "Tank, healer, DPS". If anything that was "created" out of necessity by Dungeons and Dragons (Fighter (tank/distraction/first one in), Rogue (melee dps), Wizard (caster dps), Cleric (healer)) to emphasize certain fantasies (Knight in Shining Armor facing the dragon valiantly, Sneaky Rogue skulking through the Shadows, Arcane master and learned man weaving complicated and powerful spells...and somebody has to keep these nerds alive.) So obviously in various forms of media, or re-enactments or even in real life combat they will generally be facing their opponent. Unless armies maneuvered in ways to flank their enemy (Oh look men with swords attacking from the side, can we have Paladin DPS plz? Samurai DPS plz?) or pincer-ed them.

However the fantasy of being a Swordsman with a razor sharp sword who can cut through anything speaks more to a "DPS" mentality than a "Tank" mentality. Typically all warriors "parry" as is seen in the Robin Hood style sword fights where they clank swords together and make lots of noise and "HAH HAH HAVE AT THEE!" lines with a straight stab forward. Clearly Hollywood - but does that mean all sword users should be tanks? Often in Anime a Samurai would run up behind someone in the thick of battle and stab them through the back, pull their sword out and stab someone coming from the side in their front, pull it out then stab it behind them into someone right behind them in the stomach then shake their sword off of blood.

Killing people efficiently is a DPS thing. Which is why the Machinist (soldier with a gun) is a DPS.

It could honestly go either way - I just think the "general fantasy" speaks more to DPS. Why do I say this? Because in most anime Samurai are people who are respected for their ability to kill people well. Swift, efficient, stylish murder machines. Not people who soak a ton of damage and take punishment while their allies do the killing.

Hell going by Rourouni Kenshin the guy with the bandana and white Gi who is a Karate Master and carries a giant sword much like a Dark Knight takes the punishment (Dark Knight with Giant 2h Sword) while Kenshin knocks them out with his reverse blade sword efficiently. Big 2h sword guy = tank Kenshin Samurai = DPS.

Last point: I only use anime and Japanese media as a point of reference because Samurai are purely a Japanese thing. There just aren't many western movies or cartoons made by westerners with Samurai really. 7 Samurai is their western films basically, from what I can tell.

They have the lone swordsman with a piece of hay in his mouth. We have Clint Eastwood the gunslinger.

[DWolfwood]

Last point: I only use anime and Japanese media as a point of reference because Samurai are purely a Japanese thing. There just aren't many western movies or cartoons made by westerners with Samurai really. 7 Samurai is their western films basically, from what I can tell.

How does this guy not know about Log Horizon?

Also, the movie, the Seven Samurai, is only one of the most respected and legendary films by Japan's arguably most famous and respected film director, Akira Kurosawa. Kind of a big deal.

This argument about SAM being DPS based on all this is really silly. You seriously make a better argument just saying that you don't want it to be a tank because you don't want to tank. Wanting a job to be a DPS is a completely legitimate reason enough on its own, but making these ridiculous arguments leaves you with no ground to stand on.

[Krissey]

How does this guy not know about Log Horizon?

Also, the movie, the Seven Samurai, is only one of the most respected and legendary films by Japan's arguably most famous and respected film director, Akira Kurosawa. Kind of a big deal.

This argument about SAM being DPS based on all this is really silly. You seriously make a better argument just saying that you don't want it to be a tank because you don't want to tank. Wanting a job to be a DPS is a completely legitimate reason enough on its own, but making these ridiculous arguments leaves you with no ground to stand on.

I actually don't have a preference. I tank, dps, and heal. I don't care. However what's silly is to argue that in all the various forms of media we have - that Samurai are depicted as these tanks taking massive punishment in heavy duty armor and defending their allies instead of fast, zippy, streamlined killers with lightning fast attacks and blinding speeds - cutting hairs in two mid air, etc...

So what does the general media portrayal convey to you - that of a DPS or a tank? Apparently it says to some people tank. To me it says DPS. I'm fine either way. I played both protect and fury warrior in WoW. I played both Retribution and Protection paladin in WoW. I played both Frost and Blood and Unholy Death Knight in WoW. I play every spec, I raid with every spec, I like every job/class. I literally don't care. I'm just saying they're usually zippy fast little buggers that kill people efficiently and cut down swathes of bad guys in a single blow.

Hell - Blade & Soul has both. Blade Masters are Tanks/DPS and Lynn Blade Dancers are purely DPS. Both use swords. One is the zippy fast killer, one is the parry/block master that...also has zippy fast killing moves. Either way works. But if you could only choose one I'd say Samurai are depicted more as damage dealers than damage soakers.

Also I've "heard of" Log Horizon but I don't obsessively watch every anime that ever comes out. I've also heard of Naruto but I've never seen an episode. I have many anime - but I don't watch anime just for the sake of watching anime.

[Souleater13]

Samurai will be tank or dps that we know. What about how it plays, shouldn't that be more concerning then the role? If samurai was dps I think it would allow SE to be more innovative in making another melee dps. (if they take the opportunity). If they draw ideas from the samurai in tactics and the tp techs from cyan in ff6 add "new mechanics" to differentiate itself from the other melee I think it could be interesting to play. Have it be fun to play and who cares if "samurai class attacks monster from the behind".

[DWolfwood]

So what does the general media portrayal convey to you - that of a DPS or a tank?

I started this thread with the request that SAM be both Tank and DPS, so I think it's clear that I believe it can be both nearly equally. That said, I think it would be a horrible waste of a opportunity to not make it a tank because there simply aren't that many great tank ideas out there.

A few in this thread keep saying they want a RDM/BLU tank, but to me, they should just focus on giving PLD and DRK more magic. PLD already has Stoneskin, Cure, Raise, and Protect, so why not work with that. Their Clemency should also be built upon. DRK's main focus is MP management to sustain darkside and use dark magic, aka dark arts. With this into account, I think they should make PLD and DRK more distinct rather than keep them the same to give us yet another tank that uses magic and swords. Where is the Eastern job option? DPS already has 2 if people wanna talk about having too many of one type, and one even uses Katanas. I realize people just want another 2h job like Dragoon and a sword job, but if that's literally just the case, then there are definitely other options. My own being that we get 2 "Samurai" jobs, Shogun and Ronin, but they could also get a BLU/RDM DPS along with something like a Berserkr 2h Hammer DPS, and those are just the easy options. SE could definitely make something up for players if they want it bad enough and these 2 don't cut it for them. - Pun not intended, but I'll take it.

As for the "too many" melee tanks argument, I really don't have much to say to this. I'd like to see a BST tank since we don't have a true pet-class tank, but I also don't really see how it would work out. DNC is more of a support job in my opinion and should fill the much needed melee-support gap right now. Both of these jobs are melee btw, so the only options left are a Ranger tank, going into obscure jobs, or creating something entirely new. All of which I don't think should happen in the next expansion just yet.

So again, I simply see too many great ideas for SAM to be a tank and be a great one, that I just see it as a wasted opportunity otherwise. You got things like a slice-through plunge attack, abilities that focus on SAM's countering/parry ability, and then you got stuff like this gear:


Literally perfect on SAM.

Also I've "heard of" Log Horizon but I don't obsessively watch every anime that ever comes out. I've also heard of Naruto but I've never seen an episode. I have many anime - but I don't watch anime just for the sake of watching anime.

You should definitely watch it considering you play an MMO. It's easily better than both .hack and Sword Art Online imo, the both of which are just a little bit too cash-cow and aimed at a younger audience for my liking. It's a really good show, though season 2 does take a little longer to get going.

Samurai will be tank or dps that we know. What about how it plays, shouldn't that be more concerning then the role? If samurai was dps I think it would allow SE to be more innovative in making another melee dps. (if they take the opportunity). If they draw ideas from the samurai in tactics and the tp techs from cyan in ff6 add "new mechanics" to differentiate itself from the other melee I think it could be interesting to play. Have it be fun to play and who cares if "samurai class attacks monster from the behind".

I agree on this. The way they make the job interesting is what matters most. I can easily see it using quite a lot of unique and new takes on Tank abilities considering I've been tanking for a very long time.

As for DPS, I honestly think the 3 melee currently don't have as much differentiation as we'd like to think. Greased Lightning/Huton/Blood of the Dragon are all buffs you gotta keep up, and there are DoTs you gotta maintain, along with positionals. Chakras, Jumps, and Ninjutsu are definitely interesting aspects, but Chakras aren't really a considerable chunk of MNK dps, Jumps are little more than OGCDs, which leaves Ninjutsu as the most unique element that melee have going for them currently.

They could definitely create something new, but I've no amazing ideas to contribute at the moment. Maybe something to do with charging up, like Cyan in FF6. Idk. FFXI's SAM can't really be used as a direct inspiration because pretty much every melee has what SAM brought to the table in XI. Skillchains basically got turned into combos and Dragoon (and every DPS) already have Invigorate, which is what Meditate was.