SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[Alacran]

Can anyone suggest an eastern themed FF Job that more readily fits the Tank role? We already have Monk, Ninja, what else could be used to satisfy the players who have not had the play style/ representation they want?

[Nalien]

Blue Mage has been given something of an Arabian look over the years, not quite as far east as Samurai, but close enough IMO... Both Samurai and Blue Mage, I think, would make for solid Jobs for a counter-based tanking gimmick; Samurai can take some mechanics from Bravely Defaults Swordsmaster, while Blue Magic I can't imagine working any other way in XIV... They'd have to seriously rework the current system to allow Blue Mages to go out and learn individual spells to set (a mechanic which will already require Blue Mage to be fairly beefy, if we're sticking to nostalgia), meanwhile having Blue Mage get hit with an attack, only to throw it right back in the form of Blue Magic? Perfect.

[Quor]

Imo, this is how I would SAM as a different style of tank.

Basic mechanic - 3 stances. For sake of description, let's call them Balanced, Offensive, and Defensive stance. Usage of certain skills in Balanced stance would shift the SAM into Offensive or Defensive stance. I.e. the standard 3-hit combo that all tanks have could have two separate moves for the 3rd hit; one would shift the SAM into O-stance, while the other would shift the SAM into D-stance. For the sake of MTing, a skill acquired at a low level could be implemented that starts the SAM in D-stance. You can think of the stances as something similar to the MNK forms, only with the intent being that the SAM doesn't cycle through them nearly as quickly. All of a SAM's moves are done with a deliberate power.

Balanced brings minor boosts to everything. 5% more damage dealt, 5% less damage taken, 5% more attack speed (includes reduction in GCD timer), and 10% less TP consumption. Being in B-stance allows access to a few Balanced-exclusive moves, as well as a move that would "force" the SAM into Balanced stance for a specific benefit. B-stance is the "baseline" stance for SAM, and it's the stance SAM would be in while out of combat and as a default. The SAM would eventually get a combo that let's the stay in B-stance and would serve as a mid-point between a full DPS combo and a full aggro combo. Finally, to incentivize B-stance as more than just a speed bump between O and D, all attacks made in B-stance would apply a stacking 15 potency DoT for 30s, up to a maximum of 5 stacks. Each stack would also restore 3 TP per DoT tick, up to 15 per tick.

Offensive brings major boosts to damage, at a cost. 10% more damage dealt, with 10% more attack speed (including GCD reduction) but with 5% more TP consumption. O-stance would also have certain Offensive-exclusive moves. Certain skills in O stance would generate stacks of "Focus" (working titles), up to 5, that would increase critical strike and damage by, say, 2% per stack, as well as TP cost by 5% per stack and would be used to power B-stance exclusive moves. The idea behind O-stance is high damage that is ultimately unsustainable due to the increased TP costs (unless, of course, the SAM is supported correctly by the right skills, but that is a stop-gap measure at best). The B-stance "force" move mentioned above would be powered by the Focus stacks, requiring at least one stack of Focus to use, and would have high potency (100 per stack) and restore TP based on the number of stacks (say, 40 TP per stack, for 200 TP at 5 stacks). Using the "force" move shifts the SAM into B-stance and starts a cooldown on being able to shift back into O-stance (10 seconds). The main idea here being that the SAM gains some pretty stout damage potential that will be impossible to sustain, even with outside help, without shifting into B-stance. The use of Focus could also be applied to D-stance, with a move that shifts the SAM from O-stance to D-stance, consumes all accumulated Focus, and provides a short-term buff. This buff would make the next 1-5 TP-using skills free of cost, and boost the power of the next defensive skill used by 10-50%.

Defensive stance would function as a mirror to O-stance. It would provide a damage reduction buff of 10%, as well as -5% to attack/skill speed, an increased threat of 15% and a TP cost increase of 5%. It would provide a unique buff named "Restraint" that adds an additional -2% to incoming damage, +2% to threat, +1% TP cost and -1% to attack/skill speed. Much like there would be a skill that instantly shifts the SAM to defensive stance, there would also be a skill with a relatively short CD (maybe 30s) that would instantly grant 5 stacks of Restraint, for those moments when you need to snap-tank something. The B-stance "force" move would be used to provide a heal with 100 potency per stack, that would also apply a short-term Inner Beast-like damage reduction, 3% reduction per stack (and it would, of course, stack with the B-stance damage reduction buff). This, combined with the D-stance shift move and 5-stack Restraint move, would allow the SAM to stack a lot of dmg reduction should the need arise. Likewise, using Restraint to shift into O-stance would increase attack/skill speed by 3% per Restraint stack, and cause the next 1 moves-per-stack to deal 30 potency more in damage.

The general idea behind these stances would be to provide a certain flow to the combat that the SAM engages in. There are advantages and disadvantages to each stance. B-stance has no drawbacks, but beyond the TP reduction/restoration and stacking DoT, there's no benefit to staying in the stance for too long. Ideally, being in B-stance would create a net TP gain, forcing you to shift into D or O stance to create a TP deficit. Shifting into O or D stance grants strong benefits, but also comes with a cost; you can't sustain O-stance for long, even with outside help, due to the increased cost and faster native attack and skill speed. The built-in attack/skill speed slow in D-stance is offset by the increased TP cost; ideally D stance would be a net zero situation in regards to TP, with no appreciable gain or loss so as not to negatively affect SAM's ability to tank (and putting them on the same level as the other tanks, who have no TP problems when tanking outside of WAR's spamming OP).

Furthermore, you also have reason to use D and O stance outside of their normal functions; there are ample opportunities in many current fights where a SAM could pop into O-stance for a few moves before moving back into D-stance, thereby nabbing a nice little TP and defensive boost in the process. Sure, the cost is your Restraint stacks, but that's part of the fun of the class; making those decisions as to whether the cost is outweighed by the benefit.

Overall, you've got some of the playstyle of a MNK, only lengthened out and not as a frantic, with some of the playstyle of a WAR with the stack mechanics, combined to create something that, to me, seems like it would be a fun challenge to master. Tweak the numbers as needed to ensure balance, and add the right kinds of skills (defensive CD's, some oGCD moves, a standard DoT skill maybe, some kind of aoe threat move) and you'd have a solid tank class that can shift with relative ease between OT, MT and pseudo-DPS as needed, assuming the player plans ahead. It would reward foresight and knowledge of a fight, but not be so locked into a pattern that it can't adapt to change.

It'll never happen, but it was fun to envision it anyway. Thanks to whoever managed to read my little book here.

[MaikoRaines]

Above all else, it's "Shodown"

[Khalithar]

To the people saying we need a Mage tankPlus, I'm not sure you've thought out the defense aspect when you say that they could just cast spells. Surely you realize how under-powered this would be as time went on. They'd have to either give lighter clothing the same defense as heavy armor or rework defense entirely.

This is completely untrue, in other games with mage tanks they give them a unique buff that functions like the tank stances in this game. I posted it earlier but I'll repost it for your benefit. In Rift the mage wears the same gear as every other mage but it is a tank, it tanks by having a buff called Arcane Ward that it can keep up at all times, here's what it does, "enables Block. Causes Block to derive from the Mage's Intelligence. Increases Base Health by 25%, Resistances by 35%, and Armor by 150%. Increases threat generation by 300%. Reduces damage and healing done by 20%. " They could very easily add a buff like this and make it work and honestly I think if Trion could make the mage tank work, so could Yoshi's team.

Saying it would be underpowered is simply not true.

[Shippuu]

Let me put it this way; A true mage tank would get as much out of Foe's Requiem as Black Mage. Dark Knight gets very little out of Foe's Requiem.

Let me point out a scenario to you that shows exactly the kind of problems that arise when you don't think things through fully. You can theorize about a potential magic casting tank all you want, but when you don't take into consideration all the variables and scenarios, you wind up with very big problems. So here's the spiel:

Say they add a magic casting tank, who gets "as much out of Foe's Requiem as Black Mage." People play the class, then they queue up for say, Void Ark. Now they get in there, and boom, all 3 tanks are this wonderful magical casting tank who's moves do magical damage. Tell me, what happens then when they get to the second boss of Void Ark? You know, that boss where 1 of the two targets becomes immune to all magic damage? Who's supposed to tank that? The tank job that now does literally zero damage to that target?

How about Turn 4 of the Binding Coil of Bahamut, where certain adds reflect all magic damage. Those tanks now have to take extra damage while tanking these mobs over any of the other 3 tanks?

So tell me, what's the solution there? Make them deal some super special type of magic damage that goes through all that? Sure, that'll fix it, but then they aren't dealing magic damage with their magic spells. Now you've just introduced an entirely new damage type that the developers have to spend time coding, implementing, and balancing.

A casting tank is a lofty idea, but it's not one that will ever be realistic to add into this game specifically when you consider all the factors that have to be accounted for in order for such a job to work and still have any kind of balance with the existing 3 tanks.

[silentwindfr]

with an expansion they can change everything, that the point of an expansion generally, add new mechanic that the current game can't support.

let's take one second and say that red mage will be a tank, i don't say it must or will happend but just give an example, using a spell for enhance himself for defend against enemy and enhance him attack for generate more damage (work nice with the En- of the red mage this by the way). they decide to add a new type of armor for the melee caster, at that moment it have no interest, but there come later a new expansion with the blue mage and some other caster melee that will need this armor.

yes actually a caster tank seems weird, but if we only look to the past we will not progress that the point.

and one more time Shippuu your idea of the sam is only a war with a different mechanic for replace the rage and that use a katana... *shrugs*

ps: add a tank jobs physical wearing a heavy armor and using another slash weapon will never arrive can we stop to beat the dead horse it become gross.

[DWolfwood]

Saying it would be underpowered is simply not true.

That's not even what I was talking about if you read what I was saying. That said, you're taking an entirely different game and tacking it onto FFXIV. I never said it couldn't be done, on the contrary, I know it can be done, but it's more effort than you think. I'm not saying that they can't do it either but they need to make changes. Of course it can be done, but it could also be done in smarter, easier ways. Like giving DRK more offensive magic, and giving PLD more healing/defensive.

As it is, this whole idea of a BLU/RDM that uses magic is already very similar to what we have. Stick them in armor and what you got is very close to a PLD, who have Clemency, Stoneskin, and could be worked to actually be able to use Raise/Cure since they have it already. Add that and all of a sudden you got 3 frontline tanks that use Magic in some form with swords. It's just a bit silly considering the people asking for this are usually the ones complaining there's too many sword tank classes. That's why this subject is even in a SAM thread, because they can't seem to seperate these arguments, and accept that there's no Eastern Tank class, yet there's already 2 Eastern Melee, and one already uses Katanas, which is what Samurai traditionally use.

[Nalien]

So tell me, what's the solution there? Make them deal some super special type of magic damage that goes through all that? Sure, that'll fix it, but then they aren't dealing magic damage with their magic spells. Now you've just introduced an entirely new damage type that the developers have to spend time coding, implementing, and balancing.

With Blue Mage I kinda think they'd need to do that anyway, since you'd essentially be casting things like Chocobo Kick, a physical attack. Blue Magic would have to occupy some form of hybrid magic...

As it is, this whole idea of a BLU/RDM that uses magic is already very similar to what we have. Stick them in armor and what you got is very close to a PLD, who have Clemency, Stoneskin, and could be worked to actually be able to use Raise/Cure since they have it already. Add that and all of a sudden you got 3 frontline tanks that use Magic in some form with swords.

I'd slap Blue Mage with a Mace personally, and the armor is a fairly big point... That's part of the main distinction I'd like from a mage tank. Dark Knight and Paladin wear suits of armor. Blue Mage could wear Casting set robes with a simple Clerics Stance style skill to give it the stats to tank. That makes for a very different "frontline" tank (is there any other kind?) IMO. They could do something similar with Samurai of course, because Samurai sure as hell doesn't suit Fending sets like Darklight, but it would still be a physical tank instead of a magical one.

I think it would be a real shame to just give Blue Mage a sword though... Red Mage kinda has to IMO, but you can specialize that with something like an Epee, which I'd imagine would benefit from piercing rather than slashing? Regardless of their actual roles, I'd be oddly pleased with with the three new Jobs covering the entire spectrum of physical attack types; Blue Mage, blunt. Red Mage, piercing. Samurai, slashing.

[Shippuu]

and one more time Shippuu your idea of the sam is only a war with a different mechanic for replace the rage and that use a katana... *shrugs*

ps: add a tank jobs physical wearing a heavy armor and using another slash weapon will never arrive can we stop to beat the dead horse it become gross.

You don't have the faintest clue of the ideas I have for Samurai as a tank or dps or anything else. So don't even begin to say I just want it do be WAR.

You have time and time again however shown how narrow minded you are when it comes to Samurai that it could only be a dps.

A heavy armor wearing tank is the most plausible option if they're going to add a tank, it requires the least amount of extra development work and the least amount of issues disrupting balance.