DPS checks vs mechanics

[Yukiko]

sigh...
is that really how the new generation is thinking?

Its as if you never played good games.
One of the best memories I have from games with no DPS checks!
You dont know anything if you say it will make classes obsolete or if you say you just need to run in circles...

Its called freedom and who you are to judge other players decisions?
If a group of friends likes to go in and try it with 8 PLD why you force on them what you think is right? you are wrong to force them!
And I said trying, it does not mean it becomes harder or easier or even if it is possible at all...
The balancing is meant to make it FUN but isnt made to make it impossible!
A good game is having more than one way to beat obstacles but here in ffxiv we are forced to do it with the only "possibility"...
Listening to your arguments it sounds like every sandbox game or tabletop game is a failure, i just wonder why they make more fun than ffxiv?

Less checks and more mechanics in next raid.

Hope dies last

[Kerrigen]

They aren't mutually exclusive and I'll give you 3 examples of varying difficulty.

People fail the DPS checks in say, A3s, because they can't actually handle DPSing while doing mechanics. They either tunnel vision or fail mechanics, leading to deaths, DPS loss, wipes. I've never heard of a group disbanding there because they couldn't make the enrage timer. When you get there you'll eventually win.

People fail the Sable Price in the Aery all the time, not because the check is particularly hard but because they have to start paying attention to what is happening around them while doing their rotation half-correctly.

Another DPS check that I see people fail so much that I have to issue a warning whenever I get it is Ramuh's Grey Arbiters. People never fail it because they lack the DPS to make it, it's extremely low. They fail it because they can't be bothered doing the mechanic, which requires peeling off Ramuh and killing the Arbiters.

DPS checks usually aren't the problem.

[Whiteroom]

DPS check are a mechanic, and an important one, they are just over used and abused by devs.

[Yukiko]

They aren't mutually exclusive and I'll give you 3 examples of varying difficulty.

People fail the DPS checks in say, A3s, because they can't actually handle DPSing while doing mechanics. They either tunnel vision or fail mechanics, leading to deaths, DPS loss, wipes. I've never heard of a group disbanding there because they couldn't make the enrage timer. When you get there you'll eventually win.

People fail the Sable Price in the Aery all the time, not because the check is particularly hard but because they have to start paying attention to what is happening around them while doing their rotation half-correctly.

Another DPS check that I see people fail so much that I have to issue a warning whenever I get it is Ramuh's Grey Arbiters. People never fail it because they lack the DPS to make it, it's extremely low. They fail it because they can't be bothered doing the mechanic, which requires peeling off Ramuh and killing the Arbiters.

DPS checks usually aren't the problem.

Sounds like you doing that with all 8 having iLvL of 210...
its just not true what you say!

Giving one example: having a bit low skillspeed result in skipping one skill which result in less DPS and in a fight with 8 minutes it sums up to a lot missing DPS...
I have seen statics braking apart just because 3% difference in boss HP and players yelling at each other: "push it", "push it"...
Edit: To add -> Thats why players mostly die before enrage, because they try to push it over the limit and fail on avoiding mechanics because they like to add one more skill on the boss before running...

[Syrehn]

Sounds like you doing that with all 8 having iLvL of 210...
its just not true what you say!

Giving one example: having a bit low skillspeed result in skipping one skill which result in less DPS and in a fight with 8 minutes it sums up to a lot missing DPS...
I have seen statics braking apart just because 3% difference in boss HP and players yelling at each other: "push it", "push it"...
Edit: To add -> Thats why players mostly die before enrage, because they try to push it over the limit and fail on avoiding mechanics because they like to add one more skill on the boss before running...

Sorry, but if a player can't or won't optimize their gear/stats, and that in turn is causing them substantial amounts of dps downtime, then they probably shouldn't be raiding harder content in the first place; that is a hindrance on the entire party. They should be sticking to dungeons, primals, and raiding things like story mode (aka "Normal") or ARK etc.

While it's true that some deaths in raids are caused by a player trying to sneak in an extra hit or two on a boss, I would have to say that is typically not the reason that mechanics are failed. IMO the majority of mechanical failure tends to stem from field/situational awareness.

[Yukiko]

Sorry, but if a player can't or won't optimize their gear/stats, and that in turn is causing them substantial amounts of dps downtime, then they probably shouldn't be raiding harder content in the first place; that is a hindrance on the entire party. They should be raiding story mode (aka "Normal") or things like ARK etc.

I am sure you giving me now a list of all jobs and their gear... Do you even know them all?
Its not the first time i heard about "you need gear from coil to beat coil", same with alexander!
Its not the DPS or stats that are bad, its the combination of them - try to mix voidark, esos and alexander -> you will miss something!
Most players are focusing to reach the required acc (which is another example why to fail DPS checks) but it result in having less skillspeed depending on job

[Judah_Brandt]

Yuki, your implication that people who disagree with you "must not have played good games" is both condescending and short-sighted. While we all are entitled to an opinion of what makes a game functionally good, the fact that you identify the isuue as "Statics breaking apart due to a 3%" margin of a boss' HP is far from a good example as to why DPS checks are bad. You're ultimately arguing against a skill cap, which is foolish. The content is optional, there is a normal mode that you can play. You don't have to subject yourself to the difficult mechanic, and you finding it to be a flaw does in no way mean it is a detriment to gameplay. A DPS check is nothing more than coordination, much like another poster said in regards to Ramuh. Having done all of that content when it was released, your citation that "we probably did it in i210 gear" is inherently wrong. Many, many players defeated these challenges when they were released and difficult. Do not presume to diminish the accomplishments of others so dismissively. If you don't equate coordination with skill, you'd be mistaken. Fun is subjective, as you said. Getting and being good at a game is fun to a lot of people. Accomplishment is fun.

[SnugglesD]

You will never find a vertical progression game with no DPS checks. DPS checks are essentially "do you know your job? OK, how is your gear?" They provide the reason to stay locked into the gear treadmill, which is how the game retains subs. Endgame encounters without some form of DPS check will never happen.

Regardless, mechanic only encounters are no more a test of skill than DPS check only encounters. Anyone can play jump rope, and anyone can memorize the first hundred digits of pi and rattle them off. Its when you merge the two that skill comes in.

[Yukiko]

Yuki, your implication that people who disagree with you "must not have played good games" is both condescending and short-sighted. While we all are entitled to an opinion of what makes a game functionally good, the fact that you identify the isuue

Thats not what i said, but well... whatever, you will turn around words anyway to fit it as you wish...
It may helps to read the whole and not just pickup pieces...
Indeed i am thinking that "good games" are where i have gotten "best memories"...
It would be strange to call games where i have gotten "best memories" as "bad games"...
Edit: And those "best memories" were in games with no DPS checks, do you get the connection?!

[Syrehn]

I am sure you giving me now a list of all jobs and their gear... Do you even know them all?
Its not the first time i heard about "you need gear from coil to beat coil", same with alexander!
Its not the DPS or stats that are bad, its the combination of them - try to mix voidark, esos and alexander -> you will miss something!
Most players are focusing to reach the required acc (which is another example why to fail DPS checks) but it result in having less skillspeed depending on job

I'm just going to leave this little snippet from what I said right here in case you missed it and highlight the appropriate portions...

Sorry, but if a player can't or won't optimize their gear/stats, and that in turn is causing them substantial amounts of dps downtime....

Now, to address your comment about jobs/gear/stats. It's not my job as the healer of the party to know the best stats/rotations/gear for all the other jobs in my party. It's my job to know my optimal healer stats/gear to play the class to my best ability; this is achieved through research on my job. The same can be said for anyone else. Know the job that you're raiding on.

The onus is on each individual player that is progression raiding savage level content to know their gear/stat combos; no one else.

That being said, if someone in the raid group is struggling dps wise and it's noticeably causing issues then it's discussed. Team mates will help look into what could be causing potential stat/gear/performance issues and try to help fix them. If that player is unwilling to accept help or change then they don't belong in the group. Period.