DPS checks vs mechanics

[Jim_Berry]

Nobody complained about the DPS check during Ark 2nd boss (kill the adds or be ready to wipe). Only complained about dozy DPS players who ignored adds and therefore failed the DPS check on them (kill them in time). Or the DPS check during the white room phase in Chrysalis. Or the one during the cloud phase in the Cloud of Darkness battle (kill them before they reach her). Or during Zombie Dragon (kill the skeleton adds before they reach the boss and before the boss die).

1 content with a overdone DPS check =/= all DPS checks in all contents are bad

Remove DPS checks and many battles will be boring to death. At least as a DPS player. Why playing a DPS player if damage will be not importment anymore? If we can reach the same result with auto-attack?

People did complain, actually, but not as much. In Ark, you could still pass it with a few deaths. Savage, on the other hand, requires everyone to be alive as well as beating the timer.

[Thoro39]

People did complain, actually, but not as much. In Ark, you could still pass it with a few deaths. Savage, on the other hand, requires everyone to be alive as well as beating the timer.

On our last a3s kill, our bard died about 4 times in final phase(where dps matters) in addition to getting the boss a damage-stack through embolus mechanic fail (making me force to tank in tankstance more than usual), but we still killed it with about 20 secs ahead of enrage. We were actually amazed to be able to do this, so just keep trying, even if your dps dies a couple of times. Feels really good too!
But yeah, I dont see too much room of error in A4s as it is now with available gear and inherent dps check, at least for our group, but I see it being doable with 1 or 2 unnecessary deaths if everyone else is on top of their game.

So yes, what i want to say with my anecdote is, the savage dps checks might be challenging, especially alongside difficult mechanics, but from what I hear from people, some are kind of exaggerating it's severity.
If anything, I think it was more the mechanics that's breaking some groups up tbh, a3s is pretty convoluted to grasp at first and a4s isnt very exciting by design and very drawn out. On topic of A4S, I think it's main difficulty lies more on the required coordination and the amount of outgoing damage the healers have to deal with, the A4S dps check is in comparison to the A4S healer-check pretty timid.

[Yukiko]

sigh...
is that really how the new generation is thinking?

Its as if you never played good games.
One of the best memories I have from games with no DPS checks!
You dont know anything if you say it will make classes obsolete or if you say you just need to run in circles...

Its called freedom and who you are to judge other players decisions?
If a group of friends likes to go in and try it with 8 PLD why you force on them what you think is right? you are wrong to force them!
And I said trying, it does not mean it becomes harder or easier or even if it is possible at all...
The balancing is meant to make it FUN but isnt made to make it impossible!
A good game is having more than one way to beat obstacles but here in ffxiv we are forced to do it with the only "possibility"...
Listening to your arguments it sounds like every sandbox game or tabletop game is a failure, i just wonder why they make more fun than ffxiv?

Less checks and more mechanics in next raid.

Hope dies last

[Kerrigen]

They aren't mutually exclusive and I'll give you 3 examples of varying difficulty.

People fail the DPS checks in say, A3s, because they can't actually handle DPSing while doing mechanics. They either tunnel vision or fail mechanics, leading to deaths, DPS loss, wipes. I've never heard of a group disbanding there because they couldn't make the enrage timer. When you get there you'll eventually win.

People fail the Sable Price in the Aery all the time, not because the check is particularly hard but because they have to start paying attention to what is happening around them while doing their rotation half-correctly.

Another DPS check that I see people fail so much that I have to issue a warning whenever I get it is Ramuh's Grey Arbiters. People never fail it because they lack the DPS to make it, it's extremely low. They fail it because they can't be bothered doing the mechanic, which requires peeling off Ramuh and killing the Arbiters.

DPS checks usually aren't the problem.

[Yukiko]

They aren't mutually exclusive and I'll give you 3 examples of varying difficulty.

People fail the DPS checks in say, A3s, because they can't actually handle DPSing while doing mechanics. They either tunnel vision or fail mechanics, leading to deaths, DPS loss, wipes. I've never heard of a group disbanding there because they couldn't make the enrage timer. When you get there you'll eventually win.

People fail the Sable Price in the Aery all the time, not because the check is particularly hard but because they have to start paying attention to what is happening around them while doing their rotation half-correctly.

Another DPS check that I see people fail so much that I have to issue a warning whenever I get it is Ramuh's Grey Arbiters. People never fail it because they lack the DPS to make it, it's extremely low. They fail it because they can't be bothered doing the mechanic, which requires peeling off Ramuh and killing the Arbiters.

DPS checks usually aren't the problem.

Sounds like you doing that with all 8 having iLvL of 210...
its just not true what you say!

Giving one example: having a bit low skillspeed result in skipping one skill which result in less DPS and in a fight with 8 minutes it sums up to a lot missing DPS...
I have seen statics braking apart just because 3% difference in boss HP and players yelling at each other: "push it", "push it"...
Edit: To add -> Thats why players mostly die before enrage, because they try to push it over the limit and fail on avoiding mechanics because they like to add one more skill on the boss before running...

[Syrehn]

Sounds like you doing that with all 8 having iLvL of 210...
its just not true what you say!

Giving one example: having a bit low skillspeed result in skipping one skill which result in less DPS and in a fight with 8 minutes it sums up to a lot missing DPS...
I have seen statics braking apart just because 3% difference in boss HP and players yelling at each other: "push it", "push it"...
Edit: To add -> Thats why players mostly die before enrage, because they try to push it over the limit and fail on avoiding mechanics because they like to add one more skill on the boss before running...

Sorry, but if a player can't or won't optimize their gear/stats, and that in turn is causing them substantial amounts of dps downtime, then they probably shouldn't be raiding harder content in the first place; that is a hindrance on the entire party. They should be sticking to dungeons, primals, and raiding things like story mode (aka "Normal") or ARK etc.

While it's true that some deaths in raids are caused by a player trying to sneak in an extra hit or two on a boss, I would have to say that is typically not the reason that mechanics are failed. IMO the majority of mechanical failure tends to stem from field/situational awareness.

[Yukiko]

Sorry, but if a player can't or won't optimize their gear/stats, and that in turn is causing them substantial amounts of dps downtime, then they probably shouldn't be raiding harder content in the first place; that is a hindrance on the entire party. They should be raiding story mode (aka "Normal") or things like ARK etc.

I am sure you giving me now a list of all jobs and their gear... Do you even know them all?
Its not the first time i heard about "you need gear from coil to beat coil", same with alexander!
Its not the DPS or stats that are bad, its the combination of them - try to mix voidark, esos and alexander -> you will miss something!
Most players are focusing to reach the required acc (which is another example why to fail DPS checks) but it result in having less skillspeed depending on job

[Syrehn]

I am sure you giving me now a list of all jobs and their gear... Do you even know them all?
Its not the first time i heard about "you need gear from coil to beat coil", same with alexander!
Its not the DPS or stats that are bad, its the combination of them - try to mix voidark, esos and alexander -> you will miss something!
Most players are focusing to reach the required acc (which is another example why to fail DPS checks) but it result in having less skillspeed depending on job

I'm just going to leave this little snippet from what I said right here in case you missed it and highlight the appropriate portions...

Sorry, but if a player can't or won't optimize their gear/stats, and that in turn is causing them substantial amounts of dps downtime....

Now, to address your comment about jobs/gear/stats. It's not my job as the healer of the party to know the best stats/rotations/gear for all the other jobs in my party. It's my job to know my optimal healer stats/gear to play the class to my best ability; this is achieved through research on my job. The same can be said for anyone else. Know the job that you're raiding on.

The onus is on each individual player that is progression raiding savage level content to know their gear/stat combos; no one else.

That being said, if someone in the raid group is struggling dps wise and it's noticeably causing issues then it's discussed. Team mates will help look into what could be causing potential stat/gear/performance issues and try to help fix them. If that player is unwilling to accept help or change then they don't belong in the group. Period.

[Whiteroom]

DPS check are a mechanic, and an important one, they are just over used and abused by devs.

[Kurogaea]

DPS check are a mechanic, and an important one, they are just over used and abused by devs.

It's only important since the devs make the punishment that much more severe. Not enough strength? Your whole group is f***ed. Thnx for keeping us alive for so long for nothing healers. DPS checks is a poor mans mechanic if you ask me. I can enter that in any game boss and it becomes monotonous and just plain lazy. I understand if a bad guy is charging his ultimate attack and you need to beat him up till he gets interrupted but fighting something fast enough before it decides to explode on you and kill you is stupid. Why? because why don't you f***ing blow up before we even touch you!?

Kill enemies quick before more come in? Why not send the damn horde after us!? You have a move that could wipe us in one move if we take too long to kill you trying our hardest to stay alive? Why didn't you do it before instead of f***ing with us for 15 mins!? DPS check: bad excuse for unimaginative boss fights and limited freedom to experiment.

I see why they did it though. its to make sure premade parties that like to experiment will have a tough time if they have 4 tanks, 2 dps and 2 healers for example. Its to prevent any sort of creative style the players may have so we'd have to play "Their" way. Creativity and fun in battle is forbidden apparently, not for old fights since they gave us an unsync option, thnx for that.