Why are low standards for dps acceptable?

[Whiteroom]

And this kind of thinking is EXACTLY why Damage meters are against the TOS...

And where did you come up with this little bit of misinformation?

[Belhi]

Actually yes. Most of the playerbase had it downloaded.

Recount has been among the top 3 most downloaded addons from curse client for over 8 years.
I had it.
All of my friends had it.
Entire guilds had it.
Any random player that knew of the curse website had it.
If your dps sucked, everyone will know, which also bred competition, and drive to do more damage than your piers. A drive that's nearly non-existent partially because of the fear of being banned for violation of ToS

Yes, meters may be used as a tool to antagonize players, or create habits like tunnel visioning, and greed, but at least the fact that your damage compared to everyone else's is right there for all to see. You'd want to not suck at your class, or else you'd be the butt of jokes. But guess what? People were motivated to do better because of it!

No they weren't motivated to do better because of it. Infact they were often motivated to get tunnel vision on mechanics because they were so focused on numbers. That's my point. I never argued that Recount wasn't wide spread. My point was that Recount didn't do squat to make people play better and anyone who harped on about dps numbers either was treated as elitist or accused of being obsessed with their Epeen.

Recount as a tool was most useful for measuring personal rotation performance. It's actual use in measuring the quality of a player was very unreliable. Many players got great numbers on recount but couldn't do encounter mechanics to save their lives.

Your looking at WoW's LFG scene either with Rose tinted glasses or trying to give it a positive spin as a way to argue for a parser. Personally I don't have an objection to parsers but your argument using WoW as an example is just false. Parsers did nothing to improve the quality of dps and in many cases made them worse because dps got obsessed with getting high numbers at the cost of doing mechanics correctly.

I have said it before and Ill say it again. Nothing any player can do can force another player to meet a certain standard. It just doesn't happen. You have 3 choices. Only 3 and frankly you will only ever have 3. Vote Dismiss, leave or just accept it and finish the instance anyway. If you don't want to have to deal with poor players don't use random groups. Do your roulettes with your friends.

[Kuwagami]

And this kind of thinking is EXACTLY why Damage meters are against the TOS. All that matters is the boss dies and you have fun. Don't worry about anyone else.

I have a macro for people like you.

Every time I end up over-dpsing everone else (to the point of having half the party's dps sometimes. As a tank.), I use my "my back hurts from carrying you" macro.

Also, your mentality doesn't belong to a mmo. You sound like a solo player getting lost in a group based game.

[Vivi_Bushido]

As was already posted in this thread. And every other thread like it:

Hope this isn't a double post, my post about not being embarrassed wasn't supposed to be taken as I just don't give a damn. It means I'm not going to let it get to me or make a big deal out of not knowing things about the game or performing to others standards. I will always try to play my classes better but if I screw something up or not play a class right I'm not going to be embarrassed about it. If that makes sense. Also please stop with the stupid tic tac toe reference. I see the point you are trying to make but honestly ffxiv is way more complex then tic tac toe and it really doesn't fit this scenario.

Actually, it does fit the scenario and should be reposted more offended to create awareness when you have people such as the following posting:

I.. really have to explain the obvious to you? Sigh..

Your statement for a lot of us (even outside the forums) that you pay so you can expect everything given out to you with a silver spoon means nothing.

This game is optional. No one is forcing you to play. You play because you want to.

You pay to play, I pay to play. Simple right? That should end the conversation in itself.

Now let's say our way to play differs, which one is right?

You are going to show me numbers? lol

To make it clear since it seems it must be written: yeah the BLM should use Enochian. We are those who will try to use all of our skills, which is the point of leveling up: obtaining new skills.. Somes are meh, but nonetheless are part of your job that you chose to play at this moment.

What will you do if he won't/or simply wants to be an [...]? He still pays the same sub as you, so your point of paying to earn anything less than the best is moot.

Else: skip DF and find people who have the same point of view than you as how to play this game.

Hence my statement: Unless you are not paying, but getting PAYED to play it and to represent SE into championships, it's only a GAME.

First off, for someone who claims it's just a game, you seem to care way more about how others choose to play a game then you realize. If it's just a game, why do you care if I choose to take my game seriously? How is my game affecting you in anyway?

Secondly, regarding the underline statement, all I have to say is, "WTF!?" like seriously, that escalated quickly. All I said is that if I'm paying for a game, your damn right I'm going to take it seriously. It's no different then paying for a gym membership. Why bother if your not gonna take it seriously? Also, in what way does that imply I want things to be handed to me on a sliver spoon? That's a pretty bold accusation your making and is horribly misguided and construed. Did you even read my post? I mean, hell, I was only speaking for myself and here you are speaking on behalf of the forum users and people even outside the forums. Who elected you a SJW? I surely didn't. I only asked you to clarify yourself. I didn't ask for you to be insulting.

And yes, your right the game is optional, and with that logic, you could say everything in life is optional. I never once said anything about your playstyle or anyone else's. God forbidden actually wanting to take pride in myself and play a game seriously to improve in certain aspects such as hand and eye coordination makes me some kind of basement loser right? I should be more like other American's and sit in front of the television watching the football game eating Cheetos and drinking beer. (Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm just trying to make a point here).

Lastly, in regards to playing a game competitively, you have to be good first before you can do that. One doesn't casually become a MLG. I mean, it's not impossible, but it's highly unlikely that a casual would become a MLG. You need to take that stuff seriously. And honestly, getting paid to be good at video games is like the dream job. Who wouldn't want to do that? Have you seen how much money some of the Let's Plays make on YouTube? The amount of money some gamers make for Charities? By taking their game seriously.

If it's just a game, then drawling a picture is just art right? No need to take it seriously. No reason to have pride in what you do. /sarcasm

Bottom line my point is, if I want to take my game seriously, so what? We pay the same fee as you said; but if I want to play my games seriously who're you to tell me that it's wrong? If games are designed to be fun, and I am having fun playing it this style, then it accomplished it's job, has it not?

[TheUltimateSeph]

That's exactly my point. You've gone through levels 1-50 gaining new skills or traits every 2 levels, and a new skill from your job NPC every 5 levels. Why would 50-60 (which requires the purchase of an expansion mind you) be any different? You're practically saying that having any form of expectation for the basic concept of the game is considered elitism.

I think there may be some confusion between the differences in an Elite and an Elitist. There is nothing inherently wrong with being an Elite. It's something to strive for. It sets you above all the non elite in terms of skill / capability. Google defines an Elite as 1. a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities. This is not a bad thing. An Elitist as defined by google is 1. a person who believes that a system or society should be ruled or dominated by an elite. / favoring, advocating, or restricted to an elite.
In other words the Elitist expects everyone else to do things the way they see as the best way and will not tolerate any less or any alternatives because they deem the alternatives to be unacceptable. This is where I believe that expecting people to know they have new quests from an old npc that they already finished all the quests from at the time (prior to HW launch) is an elitist ideal. To some it may be common sense, to others not so much. Even if the thought had crossed their minds they may have expected it only every 5 levels and therefore only thought they might have missed two skills at most. For a lot of people this isn't worth investigating right away to see what they may have missed. Having expectations is not elitism but trying to force others to conform to your expectations is. To those saying that it's their own fault for not getting the skills or knowing, well, I think yes and no. It's on them that they didn't get the skills and SE can share a bit of the blame in my book for not putting a sort of notification in game, maybe in their Recommended Quests menu. But berating them for it and saying that they are what's wrong with the game isn't the way to approach the situation. It only alienates them and that is what creates this rift between extremely casual and more mid-core to hard-core players. This is all just my opinion of course.

[Lego3400]

I have a macro for people like you.

Every time I end up over-dpsing everone else (to the point of having half the party's dps sometimes. As a tank.), I use my "my back hurts from carrying you" macro.

Also, your mentality doesn't belong to a mmo. You sound like a solo player getting lost in a group based game.

Well when you get reported one day I'll be here having fun while you are sitting raging you can't play anymore

also FFXIV is designed to for solo players. Use of Duty Finder is strongly encoraged by the game itself and many quests cannot be done with a group due to private instancing. It's a pain in the butt to try and play with a friend.

And where did you come up with this little bit of misinformation?

They're third party software and thus against the TOS, Yoshi-P has stated he dislikes them because it breeds eliteism and thus has no plans to add one. (I vaugely recall talk of them consdieirng adding one that shows Your own and only your own DPS to appese the self improvement crowd though). They have and will ban players that publicly admit to using them.

[Kuwagami]

The more I think back about it, the more I'm amazed that such mentality is stronger in sub-based games than in free to plays. For all my experience in F2P, I have never met a player not performing at the max they could. Some had strange or atypic builds BUT they were trying their utmost because they didn't want to be a bother to other players.

On the contrary, every sub-based game I tried is plagued with slackers. Why is that ? Do people enjoy paying 15$ a month to NOT play a game as greatly as they could when they do it for free ? What the heck ?

Well when you get reported one day I'll be here having fun while you are sitting raging you can't play anymore

also FFXIV is designed to for solo players. Use of Duty Finder is strongly encoraged by the game itself and many quests cannot be done with a group due to private instancing. It's a pain in the butt to try and play with a friend.

Don't you worry. I never ever call them out on numbers unless they ask for them (and even then I never trash them people asking are people willing to improve). I don't need that to tell that a dps is horribly bad. The day I get banned will be the day I get hacked.

also, nope. You're confused between "solo game", in which performance doesn't matter if you win, and "solo player in a group game", in which performance DOES matter. Not to mention DF was originally thought to ease grouping for people who can't get a group together, not to become the "end-all-be-all" way to do content. But blah blah easier, faster.

They're third party software and thus against the TOS, Yoshi-P has stated he dislikes them because it breeds eliteism and thus has no plans to add one. (I vaugely recall talk of them consdieirng adding one that shows Your own and only your own DPS to appese the self improvement crowd though). They have and will ban players that publicly admit to using them.

And yet we're getting training halls which are a dps meter, although not a precise one. SE's actions contradict your claims here.

What is condemned and banned concerning parsers is NOT their use (all of the raiding groups publicly use them and show them on clear vids and such) but when you use it to trash someone else. Which is just being a dick anyway and would get you banned for harassment all the same

[Lego3400]

The more I think back about it, the more I'm amazed that such mentality is stronger in sub-based games than in free to plays. For all my experience in F2P, I have never met a player not performing at the max they could. Some had strange or atypic builds BUT they were trying their utmost because they didn't want to be a bother to other players.

On the contrary, every sub-based game I tried is plagued with slackers. Why is that ? Do people enjoy paying 15$ a month to NOT play a game as greatly as they could when they do it for free ? What the heck ?

People that play F2P games tned to enjoy a much grinder game. Techinally speaking a player of this game could avoid the grind almost entirely if they don't level up extra classes or instead level alts instead. The only times you would need to grind are really the exp droughts at high levels. I personally play this game for it's story, which is above and beyond many other recent FF games due to being a bit more "Classic" in nature. The fact that it's fun to play and I have an excellent FC based around a single common trait most of us share only makes it more fun.

And yet we're getting training halls which are a dps meter, although not a precise one. SE's actions contradict your claims here.

What is condemned and banned concerning parsers is NOT their use (all of the raiding groups publicly use them and show them on clear vids and such) but when you use it to trash someone else. Which is just being a dick anyway and would get you banned for harassment all the same

The training halls would be for the Personal improvment crowd I mentioned. They're still actively against showing you other players numbers for the exact reasons I mentioned.

[ChalupaBatman]

Have not really read much of the thread, but from what I have it seems just like the one that popped up like 3 weeks ago. Anyways Ill just say what i always say.

I play my game the way that I have the most fun and that is by playing to my utmost capability.

You can play however you like it doesnt really matter to me, however If you are going to party with me, I expect you not to waste my time. I expect the 4 man or 8 man I joined to be a 4 man and an 8 man and not a 3 man and a 7 man. Obviously I cant pick and choose who I party with all the time and am generally tolerant of people that under preform as long as it looks like they are trying. If you dont meet my expectations which are very low upon first impressions then I simply will make a note to not party with you that simple and we can both go and find the group of players we mesh with.

[Kuwagami]

The training halls would be for the Personal improvment crowd I mentioned. They're still actively against showing you other players numbers for the exact reasons I mentioned.

No. Yoshida specifically said that you would be able to ask for a specific training level openly, like "only TL 8 or higher", which is pretty much akin to "1200+ dps or gtfo". Which also means kicking sub-perfoming players for that reason becomes justified.

In short, in game parser is added to the game and WILL become a way to weed out slackers without getting banned. Because they would break the terms of the party they joined so can't complain about being called out.