PLD 4.0

[AlexiIvaniskavich]

snip….

Since 3.0, PLD has had TP issues. There is no offensive ability that a PLD can spam while allowing TP to regenerate naturally. With as little damage that PLD does, this is a problem. Yes I could cast Stone skin on myself (for a max 2k shield) or on a DPS/Healer for a much weaker effect. I am not advocating that a PLD who has floored their TP should sit there on their bum. The weakest tank doesn’t also need to be the fastest tank to the TP floor, without some sort of TP regen/assistance.

You asked how PLD’s hit the floor (still within topic) I showed you how. Your solution to our TP issue is to spam Stone Skin (not even close to topic for what people would like to see for the class in 4.0). A good PLD doesn’t spam stone skin in the middle of the action. They use it during down time (jumps) or just before tank busters. I offer you an alternative to the 2.0 method of pld stone skin just before tank buster. It is a heal that is just as powerful as Equilibrium – it’s just not instant and can be interrupted. You then claim that tanks need to mitigate pre TB and it is a healers job post TB…… Equilibrium would like to say hi….

Your single mindedness on this subject, combined with the fact that your chosen class is built around self-recovery is where I take issue. You are just as guilty as going off topic as Februs or myself.

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The purpose of this thread is to open our minds to new ideas for PLD in the future. Discuss new things that we would like to see to address the issues that exist presently. Sometimes in discussing ways the game could fix things in future patches, new ideas are hatched that address the situation today. Sometimes it involves ongoing effort to spread the word on ideas that are lesser known.

Fight or Flight is roughly Grit, but only for 30 seconds and a 90 second cool down. Essentially, it negates the effects of ShO, both have an effect on damage dealt %. Just a guess, but changing one and not the other, may cause scaling issues down the road. (I don’t like napkin math on Fridays). I would be interested to see if they added some additional effect/trait to the skill, but of all the tools in the PLD kit, this one is the least broken.

PLD has a LOT of quirky skills that don’t have as much consistent application as the other tank classes. It is a borderline utility tank, but its utility isn’t unique enough to separate it from other classes, and it’s damage output is considerably lower than the other two tank classes. IMO, SE needs to better embrace this in a similar fashion as they have with ninja. Of the 3 melee classes ninja is recognized as having the lowest damage output (going with similar skill level), with Monk being the highest and DRG close behind. However, monk also has the least amount of raid utility (and resulting raid wide damage) while ninja and drg are at the top. PLD presently has the least enmity generation, the least damage, and extremely disjointed utility. Give PLD the most effective utility of any tank class, and you may actually have a question as to which tank comp to bring into progression content.

[fm_fenrir]

Give PLD the most effective utility of any tank class, and you may actually have a question as to which tank comp to bring into progression content.

Agree on utility features, and PLD already has some of that framework laid with stuff like Cover and Clemency. What about a Sheltron-Cover combination that buffs Cover to be party-wide for the next attack? I mean, it's magic, ain't gotta explain nuffin'.

Also, I wonder if PLD should just have the longest sustain, without touching its damage output. WAR and DRK can keep their burst potential, but PLD will just keep chugging along doing its boring consistent DPS for four or so minutes before gently hitting the floor.

PS, Fight or Flight is the best offensive (on an uptime basis) in the game. Berserk is stronger, but isn't available as often, and B4B is only as strong as FOF if you're a DRG main (plus it has a damage taken penalty). I'd punch a baby to have access to FOF as any "real" DPS.

[Februs]

Snip.

Took me a bit to translate this massive run on sentence, but I think I got it now ... and it still doesn't make much sense.

The first step to fixing a problem is admitting that there is one. The Pld job class has problems. Burying your head in the sand and ignoring them will not make them go away. Tp consumption is, by far, the worst on Pld, because, unlike Drk's and War's, they have absolutely no means of regenerating it while maintaining any form of Dps. When a Pld runs out of Tp their options are: Shield Swipe (only if you are MT) Stone Skin, Clemency, Flash, cross-classed Cure (feel free to laugh very loudly at this one), or cross-class Protect (again, laugh away). This is it. This is the entire kit available to Pld's who need to regen Tp. Notice that only 2 move grant enmity (one if you're OT), and only one deals dmg (none if you're OT, or if Shield Swipe does not proc). Instant Dps loss. Instant enmity loss.

Now, claiming that Pld's should not be running out of Tp is fine and dandy, but they do. A lot of people seem to be under the misconception that it's difficult for a Pld to run out of Tp so long as they are using their buffs and following the mechanics of the fight. This is flat out wrong. The first stage of Thordan ex is roughly 2 minutes long. A Pld can burn their Tp sub 50% before that phase is done. The final phase of Thor Ex has no interruptions except when you re-position Thordan. By the end of the fight, a Pld on MT is sucking empty. Given that the final phase of Thordan Ex is a make or break Dps check, having 1 player not contribute because of Tp issues is kind of a bad thing. In fights where the MT has 100% up-time (like A4, for example, in which they also get zero proc's of Shield Swipe) this problem gets even worse. A Pld can maintain their Dps by throwing out a few Stone Skins, sure, but the point is that a Tank should not have to actively sabotage their enmity and Dps just to keep their Tp bar from reaching 0. That's just bad job design, and it's a bad design that a lot of Pld's would like to see addressed in the next installment of the game (if not sooner). That's pretty on topic, as far as I can tell.

Further, you're wrong about Clemency. When used correctly, Clemency can actually out-heal the healer on Tank Busters and Party-wide AoE's, and Pld's have planned uses for this move. A real Pld who knows the job well does not gamble on whether or not the cast will go off. They make sure that it does, and they communicate with the healers to let them know that they can put their attention elsewhere. Planning Clemency to go off immediately after a TB or AoE without getting interrupted is, admittedly, extremely difficult, but it is not impossible and it's not a gamble. It just takes a lot of practice. If you used Pld frequently then you would know that almost every move in their kit, including Clemency, is planned to the second for it's most efficient use. Clemency just happens to have the least room for error. That's not a reason to ignore its utility.

On the topic of Clemency (and in-line with the Thread's topic) another adjustment that Pld's would like to see is a way of sure-casting Clemency or having its cast time adjusted by Skill Speed rather than Spell Speed. Skilled Pld's have no problem working around the 3 second cast time as it is, but it would be a nice QoL adjustment that would also make the move more approachable to players who don't main the job or have trouble timing their usage.

[Brannigan]

Is there an advantage to PLD having an attack power increase over having a damage increase?

Assuming that the attack power increase worked out to exactly 30% increased damage, there would be no difference there. However, attack power influences Clemency and Flash while "physical damage up" does not. It's similar to how Berserk boosts Equilibrium but Maim doesn't (to my knowledge).

Actually, rather than changing Fight or Flight to all damage or attack power, I'd rather they give us some magic damage stuff that becomes useful when Fight or Flight is on cooldown. Maybe a way to convert our sword attacks from physical-slashing to magic-slashing and have them cost MP rather than TP temporarily (along with some other bonus).

I'd punch a baby to have access to FOF as any "real" DPS.

3.2 patch notes:
Fight or Flight may now be accessed by Summoners and Black Mages.

<@:-)

[Reynhart]

3.2 patch notes:
Fight or Flight may now be accessed by Summoners and Black Mages.

<@:-)

Better:
Berserk is now 30% attack power and usable as a cross-class skill.
Enhanced Berserk increase Attack Power boost to +50% on top of increasing the duration to 20s.

A new no-brainer-cross-class skill for PLD and DRK

[RiisWolf]

Since 3.0, PLD has had TP issues. There is no offensive ability that a PLD can spam while allowing TP to regenerate naturally. With as little damage that PLD does, this is a problem. Yes I could cast Stone skin on myself (for a max 2k shield) or on a DPS/Healer for a much weaker effect. I am not advocating that a PLD who has floored their TP should sit there on their bum. The weakest tank doesn’t also need to be the fastest tank to the TP floor, without some sort of TP regen/assistance.

You asked how PLD’s hit the floor (still within topic) I showed you how. Your solution to our TP issue is to spam Stone Skin (not even close to topic for what people would like to see for the class in 4.0). A good PLD doesn’t spam stone skin in the middle of the action. They use it during down time (jumps) or just before tank busters. I offer you an alternative to the 2.0 method of pld stone skin just before tank buster. It is a heal that is just as powerful as Equilibrium – it’s just not instant and can be interrupted. You then claim that tanks need to mitigate pre TB and it is a healers job post TB…… Equilibrium would like to say hi….

Your single mindedness on this subject, combined with the fact that your chosen class is built around self-recovery is where I take issue. You are just as guilty as going off topic as Februs or myself.

First of all, they did not have a TP problem since 3.0 because all you had to do was use MP or Shield Swipe, both meant a DPS loss, but you closed-minded parsers wanted to whine so much about Swipe not being a DPS increase. SE caves and gives you the increase you've begged for, and now your only two options are to use MP or do nothing.

Secondly, what part of

If you run out of TP....

do you not understand. You're TP is zero, gone. You're not going to DPS because you can't, yet you wanna argue with me by saying you'd rather do nothing than use stoneskin on yourself. And to add insult to injury, assumed I implied use it on the DPS or healers too. Why? Only you should be hurt, not them. Go on, let's see you write "I'm not going to do nothing but spam stoneskin on myself and others" again. Since that's one of the only things you and Februs know how to do. Neither of you even said alternative

Three, timing clemency to cast right after a tankbuster, one that normally kills you in 2 hits, is a gamble. It's not skill. Any idiot can do that and fail on a whim too. All you have to do is cast late.

Four, here you go using Equilibrium as an excuse to justify that clemency gamble, over using stoneskin to further reduce the damage.

Five, how is it that I'm the "single-minded" one when I got you who's done nothing but reject anything and everything meant less DPS like any closed minded parser would without providing any real alternative you can do current other than sit there and nothing, while I got another who blames running out of TP on a 2.4 second recast when so many others including myself can last a minute longer (without using MP btw), and clueless somebody who's just here to troll me?

And seriously you need to stop making this about Warrior. Just because you got a BIG slow, interruptible means to heal yourself, it doesn't mean you try to be a warrior. Just play warrior if you want to use Equilibrium so bad. Otherwise stop.

Roughly isn't half as strong and up for 1/3 of the time. You can't brush off FoF as "roughly" Darkside, just because it increases damage at all. Additionally it's weaker to a paladin because it can not buff Flash and Clemency, both of which are powered by attack power. That's an actual problem. Switching the buff to 30% attack power wouldn't change the DPS gains at all but it'd be a boost for paladin.

The purpose of your post have done nothing but affirm your unwillingness to understand or read the alternatives to a problem you and other DPS obsessed tanks love to fabricate whenever it gets in the way of your numbers, even WHEN and IF you are at ZERO TP. You have never once properly responded to IF and WHEN you run out of TP, you've been arguing over things I never said, what my profile says, or nothing about what you've been actually doing to run out of TP in less than 2 minutes. Not even fracture or extra shield lobs upon boss's reentry was mentioned. Oh right, you're make-believe skillful use of clemency to heal tankbuster damage you could have reduced; again, that's gambling, anyone can do that easily, so stop using "skill" as an excuse to make yourself feel good. It also goes to show how fake and insulting your arguments are, and that's not considering the blatantly rude ones Februs is making. Anyway I'm done weeding junk out of you.

IF and WHEN you decided to acknowledge what "if and when" means, I'll carry on. Until then I'm done. Have fun trying to make things worse for us all.

[Maltothoris]

In terms of pld changes, I would suggest in terms of their tp problem over sustained fights. Maybe it would be best if fast blade went from 70 to 60, savage blade, riot blade, rage of halone and royal authority all get reduced from 60 to 50. That way. in being the one tank class that can't regain tp like the warrior can or the drk reducing the ost of their tp, the pld would have the lowest tp cost of the three tank classes.

The biggest problem though is their utility and the difficulty in trying to implement it. There have been those who suggest just cut out the middle man for divine veil and just have as a shield that covers anyone in the range of the spell. In terms of clemency, I would suggest either a 2 second cast time or like waht others have said, have it based on skill speed rather than spell speed..

Like people have said, pld should be the utility tank witht eh most defensive utility to offer the party but Se needs to find a way to implement it that way.

[Reynhart]

First of all, they did not have a TP problem since 3.0 because all you had to do was use MP or Shield Swipe, both meant a DPS loss

Before 3.0, Shield Swipe was a DPS gain. That's why you'd want to use it whenever it procs (Especially after it was given an enmity boost), and how you'd gain some TP back.

[RiisWolf]

Before 3.0, Shield Swipe was a DPS gain. That's why you'd want to use it whenever it procs (Especially after it was given an enmity boost), and how you'd gain some TP back.

That was only because back then Royal Authority, Gore Blade, and Dark Knight's riposte wasn't in the picture before 3.0. Where as in 3.0 we got the long awaited threat modifier for swipe, a means to activate it more often, stronger attacks which made swipe a DPS lose, and DRK's riposte that made some players want swipe to be just like (and they got their wish in 3.1). Nothing about the 40TP cost, it being a GCD and TP you'd recover from changed in 3.0.

Would be nice if swipe was on a shorter timer than it is now, assuming they keep it an ogcd.

[Reynhart]

Would be nice if swipe was on a shorter timer than it is now, assuming they keep it an ogcd.

Would be nice if it was kept on GCD but made a conal AoE...(With reduced potency, of course)