Thread: PLD 4.0

Could add to the aoe heal thought with aoe bubble that boosts skills speed or something

Oh man, my PLD Wishlist is pretty big. I don't take credit to having thought up of anything this, some of it is just repeating earlier said stuff or finding it somewhere, some of it I thought of. None of this will ever happen though.

More AoEs!!

Savage Blade should hit 2 additional targets for 50 potency. Main target potency reduced by 25 and RoH and RA increased by 25 to compensate. IMO all cleave looking animations should cleave

Circle of Scorn CD reduced to 15 sec. Lets you refresh DOT and press something more frequently.

Maybe Flash doing minor damage? (would rather have the above 2 options so you don't spam 1 ability for aoe and run out of MP for next pull)

More Emphasis on Shields

Magic Attacks being blockable (only targeted obvious blockable ones like Fire and Blizzard, not Paralysis or AoE magics from bosses)
C'mon Paladins aren't just Gladiators, they should be able to use some Holy magic to block/absorb magic.

Bulwark reduced to 90 sec cd, Rampart increased to 120 sec to compensate. (nerf me more if you have to, blocking is awesome)

Shield Slam purging enemy debuffs like Haste. (lol maybe op and obviously not dispelling something that breaks encounter mechanics)

Cover effect extended to magic (since we would be able to block them)

More/Better Options on Cross Class Skills

Raise being cast in combat

Esuna being cross skilled (would be nice)

Don't mind losing Stoneskin, stone doesn't really fit the fantasy of PLD anyways.

Fracture being longer, maybe it still won't be used, but at least make it a viable option

TP Management

Shield Swipe or Riot Blade(in addition to MP) regenerating some TP (20 TP?)

Other Stuff

Tempered Will having a Surecast effect

Sword Oath and Shield Oath not breaking combos

Shield Oath not having such a penalty on DPS (15 or 10%)

Rage of Halone reducing int and dex in addition to str by 10%

Originally Posted by Link594

Oh man, my PLD Wishlist is pretty big. I don't take credit to having thought up of anything this, some of it is just repeating earlier said stuff or finding it somewhere, some of it I thought of. None of this will ever happen though.

More AoEs!!

Savage Blade should hit 2 additional targets for 50 potency. Main target potency reduced by 25 and RoH and RA increased by 25 to compensate. IMO all cleave looking animations should cleave

Circle of Scorn CD reduced to 15 sec. Lets you refresh DOT and press something more frequently.

Maybe Flash doing minor damage? (would rather have the above 2 options so you don't spam 1 ability for aoe and run out of MP for next pull)

More Emphasis on Shields

Magic Attacks being blockable (only targeted obvious blockable ones like Fire and Blizzard, not Paralysis or AoE magics from bosses)
C'mon Paladins aren't just Gladiators, they should be able to use some Holy magic to block/absorb magic.

Bulwark reduced to 90 sec cd, Rampart increased to 120 sec to compensate. (nerf me more if you have to, blocking is awesome)

Shield Slam purging enemy debuffs like Haste. (lol maybe op and obviously not dispelling something that breaks encounter mechanics)

More/Better Options on Cross Class Skills

Raise being cast in combat

Esuna being cross skilled (would be nice)

Don't mind losing Stoneskin, stone doesn't really fit the fantasy of PLD anyways.

Fracture being longer, maybe it still won't be used, but at least make it a viable option

TP Management

Shield Swipe or Riot Blade(in addition to MP) regenerating some TP (20 TP?)

Other Stuff

Tempered Will having a Surecast effect

Sword Oath and Shield Oath not breaking combos

Shield Oath not having such a penalty on DPS (15 or 10%)

Cover effect extended to magic (since we would be able to block them)

Just a few notes on these:
1. SB potency wouldn't necessarily be overpowered, especially at such a low cleave potency, even if its main potency were left the same. Moreover, you're going to lose out more than you're thinking here by shifting 25 potency from SB to RA to compensate, just because RA has no enmity modifier. Definitely a fan of all cleave-looking abilities cleaving, though, and SB seems the most popular choice among GLD abilities of late.
2. One of things that's interesting about GLD/PLD oGCDs is that they all contribute identical single-target potency per second at the moment (150 per 15, 250 per 25, 300 per 30), if used ideally (full health SW, Swipe used instantly upon CD refresh). CoS is already the strongest oGCD, even in single target, just because it has none of the limitations of the other two.
3. If it dealt damage, it would also break CCs.

1. Would be nice. One of my favorite suggestions was to just place all magics somewhere along a spectrum between purely aetherial (Unmend, Bio, Fire) and purely manifest (Stone, e.g. magically flinging a giant, very much physical, boulder).
2. That would be pretty OP at that point unless average block chance were reduced to compensate, which would then just give you a feeling of being half-assed whenever Bulwark is on CD, especially if blocking were more important to GLDs/PLDs.
3. Well, it is the same TP cost and potency, basically, as One-Ilm Punch. But, it already comes with a stun, which is practically taking up to 6 seconds off all its buffs anyways.

1. /shrug
2. Can't deny that.
3. Element aside, I'm not sure why a 10%HP shield would feel unlike a Knight or Paladin.
4. Just beware that when you lengthen any duration, it messes with the classes that already use the ability, e.g. Monks. I think it would be wiser just to raise the DoT's per tick potency from 20 to 25, increasing the total damage from 220 to 250 such that it's still TP-inefficient, but at least over RA-average potency.

1. It makes no sense for a weaponskill to generate flat TP. At that point you should just reduce its cost instead. The same could be said for Shield Swipe if it was made a viable weaponskill at below-average TP cost. Aside from that though, if you allowed blocking for all magic attacks, Swipe still wouldn't balance PLD TP-generation specifically around physical fights, which would otherwise be the main downside of this.

1. Great.
2. Our Oath-swaps are still pretty good as is. We also have the option at least of dropping Shield Oath just before finishing our combo and then popping Sword Oath before the next (well, next-next) AA, which largely mitigates the combo-cost. The GCD loss itself may be a bigger factor in most cases. Just throwing info/ideas out there.
3. Could also limit it to weaponskills, reducing its penalty to effectively 13% or so.
4. Makes sense, given the first, but would come with costs in certain rare situations (e.g. where splitting damage between two tanks from a mixed magic/physical boss would have been preferable).

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Just a few notes on these:
1. SB potency wouldn't necessarily be overpowered, especially at such a low cleave potency, even if its main potency were left the same. Moreover, you're going to lose out more than you're thinking here by shifting 25 potency from SB to RA to compensate, just because RA has no enmity modifier. Definitely a fan of all cleave-looking abilities cleaving, though, and SB seems the most popular choice among GLD abilities of late.
2. One of things that's interesting about GLD/PLD oGCDs is that they all contribute identical single-target potency per second at the moment (150 per 15, 250 per 25, 300 per 30), if used ideally (full health SW, Swipe used instantly upon CD refresh). CoS is already the strongest oGCD, even in single target, just because it has none of the limitations of the other two.
3. If it dealt damage, it would also break CCs.


2. That would be pretty OP at that point unless average block chance were reduced to compensate, which would then just give you a feeling of being half-assed whenever Bulwark is on CD, especially if blocking were more important to GLDs/PLDs.
3. Well, it is the same TP cost and potency, basically, as One-Ilm Punch. But, it already comes with a stun, which is practically taking up to 6 seconds off all its buffs anyways.

3. Element aside, I'm not sure why a 10%HP shield would feel unlike a Knight or Paladin.

1. It makes no sense for a weaponskill to generate flat TP. At that point you should just reduce its cost instead. The same could be said for Shield Swipe if it was made a viable weaponskill at below-average TP cost. Aside from that though, if you allowed blocking for all magic attacks, Swipe still wouldn't balance PLD TP-generation specifically around physical fights, which would otherwise be the main downside of this.

The problem with the cleave is that you don't want people to leave out the 3rd combo ability just to increase their DPS in AoE scenarios. With 175 on the target and 50 on 2 aditional targets, Rage of Halone would be better because its improved potency would be 285 as opposed to Savage Blade cleave 275.
You do lose out a little when you are doing RA combo because of the enmity modifier, but if you just use Halone for enmity, you don't lose out there.

You do have a good point about the CoS being too strong, for single target. Maybe PLD could use a buff? Can't give you an argument other PLD could use a buff, but I don't know how much stronger this would be and the impact it could have vs other tanks' DPS. Would have to be tested.

Good point about Flash, I wouldn't like for it to do damage either, would rather have the Savage Blade cleave or a better CoS.

For Bulwark, you can just reduce the block percentage from 60% to 50% or 40% to make it a little less stronger for a more active ability. Maybe increase block by 40% with a CD of 60 sec? I'm sure with testing and tuning you could make it work.

For Shield Slam, good point. I'm also not sure how much of an impact it would have in PvP.

The 10% HP shield doesn't feel unlike a Paladin, its just that the stone element does. If it didn't have an element similar to Protect, I wouldn't have a problem.

For TP Management, you have a good point. I just feel like you would just be delaying the amount of time it takes to run out of TP. Running out of TP really sucks, and I wish there was a way to effectively restore it without just spamming Flash or casting spells lol.

Didn't quote the whole post, just the things I addressed and commented on.

Originally Posted by Link594

snip

To be honest, I kind of like the idea of that choice (of going just for Savage Blade each time for cleave priority). And if you're going for some manner of AoE parity, it would need to be stronger still, and/or truly allow that choice. You could always mess with GLD/PLD internal mechanics as well. I played around with some PLD cleave ideas a while back, listed in the signature if you're interested (toggleable weaponskill cleave on all Sword Oath attacks, and finally settled on Shield Swipe cleave in Shield Oath - see the "3.2 patchnotes I'd like to see" section). So many options for this stuff.

Heck, just imagine if we took GLD's fast-hitting motif and actually made Fast Blade have a shortened weaponskill recast, increased Riot Blade's MP return and either slapped on a debuff-extender (for Heavy, Slows, and/or Paralyze) or a light, short bleed [Goring could then cleave-extend all bleeds you caused in addition to bleeding the main target], and Savage Blade was a 200-potency cleave. Either improve the current mana uses slightly or give us another offensive, possibly AoE, option to spend mana on. Now you'd really have a choice in where to end your combo.

As for Bulwark, I feel like this would reduce the gap, which is good, but the same time, we do of course still want it to be noticeable. I'm not sure without trying to create a variety of situations/simulations in my head just what block rate increase, for how long, and how frequently, would feel best, or if it'd be good to steal some ability value off Rampart, etc., to support that. As long as Yoshi keeps to his statement that magic will never be blockable, though, I'd be much less comfortable with the idea of siphoning strength from more reliable and un-niched mitigation tools to support a physical-only one, even if essential to internal mechanics (through blocks).

[Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on shield balance at the moment, given that Shelltron favors towers, average mitigation favors kites, and if Swipe (if it were both worthwhile and without a CD, such as if it were a 230-potency weaponskill) favors bucklers? Does that basically work already, in your opinion, or should each of those abilities have an internal balance to favor all shield types more equally?]