PLD 4.0

[RiisWolf]

I run out of TP in about 2:15, thanks to my 2.4s GCD. Unlike DRK, if I go dry I don't have the luxury of wasting some GCDs spamming Unmend at stuff to keep threat up, because PLD has only has COS and Shield Swipe as "free" skills. I also can't drop Grit and use Blood Weapon to buy back some TP.

PLD's TP consumption is on target with WAR and DRK, but has no way to recover it under sustained load.

Takes me 3 minutes to run completely dry at 2.4, having use Lob only once and applying gore blade just before it falls off. Indefinitely if I start popping stoneskin for defense or clemency if someone is hurt bad. Hell I have more time when bosses become untouchable. The problem here is that people don't realize it is not week 1 of Savage anymore. Back when it as released it wasn't even 6 weeks and 200/210s came out that same week, it was impossible for anyone to be decked out in full 190s at the time, which naturally means since savage drops 210s, you were a too weak to do things normally. So you had to make up for it by putting up a healer to DPS full time, usually a whm , maximize power for tanks and/or cut PLD from the equation and neglect anything and everything that got between you and your numbers, even when there is a clear danger those numbers dropping anyway. PLDs run out of TP just sit, like they never learned clemency or better yet stoneskin. Even DRKs just sit there out of TP never ever using unmend. Screw defense , DPS was entirely the issue. And look at what happened. Months later everyone can be decked out in 200s and 210s and they still love to pretend its week 1: where everyone is so weak they must rely on healers to fight and tanks to forsake defense for the sake of pushing numbers, when you don't have to anymore. Heck SE gave the people who want Shield Swipe to be an OGCD just like Reposte, and look at whats happening. And we have the same people wanting the oaths to be oGCD, when we all know SE will put a long recast on them, and the best part is these probably the same players who always spout everything is fine with timing. But again, lets ignore that for the parses.

I have one person here who will risk the likely of being interrupted for healing for mitigation, you do not try to mitigate damage by doing it AFTER its been done, not to mention that's the healers job to mitigate after damage is dealt. The tank is should mitigate damage before the hit so that its less work for healers making it easier to do their job and/or DPS.

If you run out of TP then just use stoneskin, or anything! Just be doing something, instead of waiting for a NIN/BRD/MCH/AST to do it for you.

Also, to be on topic:
Would be rad for PLD to have their TP costs and set up like the Speedy archetypes(MNK/NIN) and make them fast strikers their GLD story makes them out to be. They even have the fastest auto attack already.
And please don't change the oaths to oGCD, I'd very like to switch freely instead of being stuck in one for 15 seconds or a possibly worse penalty than already is for them.

[Shurrikhan]

snip

Using Clemency as a TP-measure only provides you with 1.8 GCDs per minute. Interruption also keeps this from being useful as just a 'tossing-one-out-there' measure if MTing.

That said, no spell can be interrupted in the time when movement would not have done the same. For me, that's nearly a second. For a skilled PLD, that's a fairly large window by which to recover health via Clemency from a tank-buster without Clemency being interrupted. The problem, in my opinion, is the MT limitations aside from just the interruption, namely that you cannot block, parry, or AA while casting. This leaves a pairing with Shelltron impossible, and Stoneskin on a STR tank more likely to cost health on self-cast than to save any.

I have yet to see a DRK who sits at 0 TP without casting Unmend. Most I see, if stance-dancing, will start using it early (around 120) so that there's no chance of bottoming out during Blood Weapon.

Completely agreed in terms of Oaths and the limitations that would almost certainly be worse for PLD than WAR due to Shield Oath's more immediate benefits if the Oaths were made oGCD. Copying WAR there would likely cause more harm than good, and definitely wouldn't feel very PLD-like, either. (Not an intrinsic matter, due to taking from Warrior or anything like that, but simply incidental to the mechanics Warrior is currently using if taken basically as is, though likely with added penalties due to Oath's superiority (functioning as if at 5 stacks at all times, instantly granting eHP, etc.); being locked out of a defensive stance for 12 to 15 seconds just does not feel like a Knight to me.)

[To be on topic:]
This. It's kind of sad, but Speed is really the only noticeable gameplay-changing stat we have outside of Crit-procs on Bard, Arcanist, and Scholar's Adlo. We aren't encouraged to double-weave nearly as much as DRK, but we also have some of the shortest animations, leaving us feeling like we're just sitting there after our non-finisher animations, Fast Blade and Savage Blade especially. More importantly, PLD is the one tank that feels, at least to me, like it shouldn't have to cater towards the highest potency attack at all times. Whereas pure Damage or Critical Strike would favor Goring Blade and Royal Authority in that descending order, Speed does nothing for single-target Goring Blade and effectively reduces the gap between Royal Authority and Rage of Halone, slightly, adding more control and opportunities. For instance, a 2.5 GCD PLD can replace GB every 3rd combo, clipping 1.5 seconds. A 2.4 GCD used to have the option for a perfect reapplication by using one Swipe per GB, but now simply reapplies every 3rd combo without any breaks, clipping 3 seconds, a guaranteed tick loss. If we were to drop to a 2.25 to 2.10 GCD, it could be every fourth combo, losing only 3 seconds or less, possibly not even a tick. One more RA or Rage of Halone, and able to maintain 4 DoTs on trash. Not as strong, potentially, as a pure damage buff, but if TP costs were adjusted it would certainly be more interesting.



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That said, it'd be red if Paladin got a circle slash (or a simple cleave). I miss that attack from 1.0.

So many 1.0 GLD skills worth missing... Not many that fit, of course, but a lot of strong stuff there, especially if adapted for the current game. Heck, the new Goring Blade kind of looks like the perfect animation for the cast-speed slowing Howling Blade.

What in the world are Paladins doing to run out of TP in less than 2 minutes??? It makes absolutely no sense as to how players play that job and focus on being overly offensive, to the point they neglect using stoneskin and clemency. Not to mention there are tons of bosses that make themselves untouchable, or the walk between mobs.

Use MP to let your TP regenerate or play another class actually GEARED for DAMAGE!!!

If those classes that are "geared for damage" include DRK and WAR by comparison to PLD then something's a bit wrong here. PLD's utility simply isn't strong enough to make up for the imbalance in other tank capacities (AoE damage, AoE threat, TP sustain, and especially MT ST dps). Opportunities to use its utility, in general, are similarly underwhelming in the current state of game. We could buff either that utility or that damage, or maybe even adjust the state of game (?), but for a job to be purposely not 'geared for damage' while being generally balanced would require that they are still contributing similar raid damage through some other means, and/or some really strong safety net. Personally, I'd personally like PLD to stay (or rather, become more) unique, but that doesn't mean I don't want to see near-parity in most tank capacities.

[Februs]

I have one person here who will risk the likely of being interrupted for healing for mitigation, you do not try to mitigate damage by doing it AFTER its been done, not to mention that's the healers job to mitigate after damage is dealt. The tank is should mitigate damage before the hit so that its less work for healers making it easier to do their job and/or DPS.

If you run out of TP then just use stoneskin, or anything! Just be doing something, instead of waiting for a NIN/BRD/MCH/AST to do it for you..

I find this to be an extremely amusing comment, given that it's coming from someone who's profile says they main Warrior, and half of Warrior's defensive kit is based on active mitigation.

Actively mitigating dmg means self-healing. Bloodbath, Equilibrium, Thrill of War, and Storms Path are all used to actively mitigate via self-healing. Further, all of those moves can be coupled with other moves to increase self-healing dramatically (Ie: Bloodbath + Vengeance/Berserk/Deliverance + Fell Cleave or Decimate... etc) If you're using any of these when you don't need Hp, then you're wasting them, but according to this comment that's totally fine, given that Tanks are, apparently, not supposed to heal dmg after the fact. That's the healer's job. So, really, War's Defensive CD's consist only of Fracture, Vengeance, and Holmgang, because using anything that self-heals can be safely ignored since it's not their job ...

It's also totally okay for Pld's to drop their Dps to zero and spam cast Stoneskin (but not clemency, because self-healing after the fact is not the tank's job). It doesn't matter that their enmity generation will collapse to the floor. It also doesn't matter that the current Tank meta involves heavy Dps checks. Stoneskin and flash is where it's at. That's the bee's knees of Tanking right there. Being able to consistently apply RoH's Str down debuff on the boss is a non-issue, and keeping GB's DoT up for maximum Dps is totally not important. Pld auto attack can handle all of that lost potency cuz it's just that fast (obviously this is all sarcasm).

Seriously, I don't even understand where these kinds of comments can come from. At least their good for a chuckle, I guess.

[RiisWolf]

I find this to be an extremely amusing comment, given that it's coming from someone who's profile says they main Warrior, and half of Warrior's defensive kit is based on active mitigation.

What I find amusing is a Paladin who has the nerve of trying to mock me over an argument with Paladin's mitigation vs tankbusters, what PLDs are doing to run out of TP and what to if and when you run of TP, just because my profile says I main as a warrior among other preconceived junk. All this because this paladin clearly thinks Clemency is on the same level as any a warrior can do, as though it can possibly be interrupted by extreme damage thus making clemency do absolutely nothing. It is so funny how in this guy's mind using stoneskin before getting hit by a tankbuster to reduce the damage and healing needed there after, is worse than potentially doing nothing and getting killed by a follow up or wasting a healer's CD like Benediction when they got better things to do than to clean up the mess your poor judgment has caused, just because clearly you think that warrior's only form of defense is self-healing. Clearly the DR, HP bonuses, Healing magic bonuses, 100% parry, best pool of cross class skills, and inner beast, all don't exist. I don't have to say that last sentence is sarcasm but since you're reading this, I should. And don't get me started with that clueless reply to If you run out of TP then just use stoneskin, or anything! Just be doing something, instead of waiting for a NIN/BRD/MCH/AST to do it for you.. . Seriously I don't feel like it.

Next time, please stay on topic.

Also to be on topic.
Would be nice if Fight or Flight increased attack power instead of strictly damage.

[Februs]

Snip.

Took me a bit to translate this massive run on sentence, but I think I got it now ... and it still doesn't make much sense.

The first step to fixing a problem is admitting that there is one. The Pld job class has problems. Burying your head in the sand and ignoring them will not make them go away. Tp consumption is, by far, the worst on Pld, because, unlike Drk's and War's, they have absolutely no means of regenerating it while maintaining any form of Dps. When a Pld runs out of Tp their options are: Shield Swipe (only if you are MT) Stone Skin, Clemency, Flash, cross-classed Cure (feel free to laugh very loudly at this one), or cross-class Protect (again, laugh away). This is it. This is the entire kit available to Pld's who need to regen Tp. Notice that only 2 move grant enmity (one if you're OT), and only one deals dmg (none if you're OT, or if Shield Swipe does not proc). Instant Dps loss. Instant enmity loss.

Now, claiming that Pld's should not be running out of Tp is fine and dandy, but they do. A lot of people seem to be under the misconception that it's difficult for a Pld to run out of Tp so long as they are using their buffs and following the mechanics of the fight. This is flat out wrong. The first stage of Thordan ex is roughly 2 minutes long. A Pld can burn their Tp sub 50% before that phase is done. The final phase of Thor Ex has no interruptions except when you re-position Thordan. By the end of the fight, a Pld on MT is sucking empty. Given that the final phase of Thordan Ex is a make or break Dps check, having 1 player not contribute because of Tp issues is kind of a bad thing. In fights where the MT has 100% up-time (like A4, for example, in which they also get zero proc's of Shield Swipe) this problem gets even worse. A Pld can maintain their Dps by throwing out a few Stone Skins, sure, but the point is that a Tank should not have to actively sabotage their enmity and Dps just to keep their Tp bar from reaching 0. That's just bad job design, and it's a bad design that a lot of Pld's would like to see addressed in the next installment of the game (if not sooner). That's pretty on topic, as far as I can tell.

Further, you're wrong about Clemency. When used correctly, Clemency can actually out-heal the healer on Tank Busters and Party-wide AoE's, and Pld's have planned uses for this move. A real Pld who knows the job well does not gamble on whether or not the cast will go off. They make sure that it does, and they communicate with the healers to let them know that they can put their attention elsewhere. Planning Clemency to go off immediately after a TB or AoE without getting interrupted is, admittedly, extremely difficult, but it is not impossible and it's not a gamble. It just takes a lot of practice. If you used Pld frequently then you would know that almost every move in their kit, including Clemency, is planned to the second for it's most efficient use. Clemency just happens to have the least room for error. That's not a reason to ignore its utility.

On the topic of Clemency (and in-line with the Thread's topic) another adjustment that Pld's would like to see is a way of sure-casting Clemency or having its cast time adjusted by Skill Speed rather than Spell Speed. Skilled Pld's have no problem working around the 3 second cast time as it is, but it would be a nice QoL adjustment that would also make the move more approachable to players who don't main the job or have trouble timing their usage.