Thread: PLD 4.0

Simple explanation of why rapid large auto attacks don't work: tank gets hit for 6k, healer heals for 4k, tank gets crit for 10k, healer heals for 4k and uses a cooldown, tank gets crit again, massive panic to keep up, tank ends up dead and there's nothing either of them could've done to stop it. You can't have one role in a group rely largely on RNG to survive while another role stresses out trying to keep them alive, as the last role hopes that both can make it work and not wipe. Parry would be more useful, yes, but at a cost no one wants to pay.

Edit: Also, just to note, in this fictional world WAR would be king, PLD would be quite a bit behind but still viable, and DRK would get sliced through like butter.

Parry's just a bad stat and it really should be providing both parry rate and flat mitigation if they want tanks to seek it out. Traits to make parry basically give bonus damage (or more stuff like Low Blows but more important) would be fine as well but something has to be done. Also this is a couple pages back but dark knight really doesn't burn away MP on crappy AOEs in order to deal with TP loss. They just yell at the ninja like paladins do (also blood weapon helps a little).

Back on the actual topic of the thread, where I'd like them to go with new paladin abilities really depends on what they do with the other tanks in 4.0. In Heavensward we basically got back some 1.23 abilities that got cut to make room for stuff like sword/shield oath, awareness, and putting Provoke on GLA instead of MRD (why?). It was good to get that stuff back in Heavensward, they just made all of it way worse - Clemency is a slower Holy Succor, Divine Veil's cooldown is like 2.5 times longer and doesn't raise block rate, and Aegis Boon got the healing changed to MP restoration. Hopefully they don't do the same thing in 4.0, because while Outmaneuver and War Drum would be good for paladin TP/AOE, I think they'd also both be really boring and those problems should be fixed by making skills we have right now more useful.

I think they did some cool stuff with Heavensward abilities on other classes, and I want some of that for me. For paladin in 4.0, I'd like to see an ability or WS that changes depending on what stance you're in. I'd also like to see a WS that has its own cooldown, like Empyreal Arrow. It would be cool if we had a WS that was based on a random proc, or that could be used after any combo for different effects. I'd also like more multipurpose abilities in general. So, this is kind of quickly put together, but something like this:

Gallant Blade - Whatever seconds recast
Delivers an attack with some potency. Combo potency: more
Additional effect changes depending on preceding weapon skill.
Rage of Halone: Does this effect
Goring Blade: Does that effect
Royal Authority: Does the other effect
This weaponskill does not share a recast timer with any other actions.

Something like this would be cool, I think, and could add a lot of flexibility with only one ability slot. Really, the more words that are on the tooltip, the better.

Originally Posted by Brannigan

Also this is a couple pages back but dark knight really doesn't burn away MP on crappy AOEs in order to deal with TP loss. They just yell at the ninja like paladins do (also blood weapon helps a little).

DRK at least has the option of using Unmend for a couple GCDs when they bottom out (or Abyssal Drain, or Dark Passenger, or Plunge), while PLD has COS and Shield Swipe (and not even Swipe if they're OT).

It's trivial for a PLD to go dry on TP, and it's the only tank with no way to get it back without begging the NIN. That's why the suggestions I made way, way back on page 1 all include ways for PLD to recover TP that aren't straight clones of Equilibrium/Purify/Invigorate, and work with the existing skills PLD already has.

Originally Posted by Ragology

Is there an advantage to PLD having an attack power increase over having a damage increase?

Assuming that the attack power increase worked out to exactly 30% increased damage, there would be no difference there. However, attack power influences Clemency and Flash while "physical damage up" does not. It's similar to how Berserk boosts Equilibrium but Maim doesn't (to my knowledge).

Actually, rather than changing Fight or Flight to all damage or attack power, I'd rather they give us some magic damage stuff that becomes useful when Fight or Flight is on cooldown. Maybe a way to convert our sword attacks from physical-slashing to magic-slashing and have them cost MP rather than TP temporarily (along with some other bonus).

Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

I'd punch a baby to have access to FOF as any "real" DPS.

3.2 patch notes:
Fight or Flight may now be accessed by Summoners and Black Mages.

<@:-)

Originally Posted by RiisWolf

snip….

Since 3.0, PLD has had TP issues. There is no offensive ability that a PLD can spam while allowing TP to regenerate naturally. With as little damage that PLD does, this is a problem. Yes I could cast Stone skin on myself (for a max 2k shield) or on a DPS/Healer for a much weaker effect. I am not advocating that a PLD who has floored their TP should sit there on their bum. The weakest tank doesn’t also need to be the fastest tank to the TP floor, without some sort of TP regen/assistance.

You asked how PLD’s hit the floor (still within topic) I showed you how. Your solution to our TP issue is to spam Stone Skin (not even close to topic for what people would like to see for the class in 4.0). A good PLD doesn’t spam stone skin in the middle of the action. They use it during down time (jumps) or just before tank busters. I offer you an alternative to the 2.0 method of pld stone skin just before tank buster. It is a heal that is just as powerful as Equilibrium – it’s just not instant and can be interrupted. You then claim that tanks need to mitigate pre TB and it is a healers job post TB…… Equilibrium would like to say hi….

Your single mindedness on this subject, combined with the fact that your chosen class is built around self-recovery is where I take issue. You are just as guilty as going off topic as Februs or myself.

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The purpose of this thread is to open our minds to new ideas for PLD in the future. Discuss new things that we would like to see to address the issues that exist presently. Sometimes in discussing ways the game could fix things in future patches, new ideas are hatched that address the situation today. Sometimes it involves ongoing effort to spread the word on ideas that are lesser known.

Fight or Flight is roughly Grit, but only for 30 seconds and a 90 second cool down. Essentially, it negates the effects of ShO, both have an effect on damage dealt %. Just a guess, but changing one and not the other, may cause scaling issues down the road. (I don’t like napkin math on Fridays). I would be interested to see if they added some additional effect/trait to the skill, but of all the tools in the PLD kit, this one is the least broken.

PLD has a LOT of quirky skills that don’t have as much consistent application as the other tank classes. It is a borderline utility tank, but its utility isn’t unique enough to separate it from other classes, and it’s damage output is considerably lower than the other two tank classes. IMO, SE needs to better embrace this in a similar fashion as they have with ninja. Of the 3 melee classes ninja is recognized as having the lowest damage output (going with similar skill level), with Monk being the highest and DRG close behind. However, monk also has the least amount of raid utility (and resulting raid wide damage) while ninja and drg are at the top. PLD presently has the least enmity generation, the least damage, and extremely disjointed utility. Give PLD the most effective utility of any tank class, and you may actually have a question as to which tank comp to bring into progression content.

Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

Give PLD the most effective utility of any tank class, and you may actually have a question as to which tank comp to bring into progression content.

Agree on utility features, and PLD already has some of that framework laid with stuff like Cover and Clemency. What about a Sheltron-Cover combination that buffs Cover to be party-wide for the next attack? I mean, it's magic, ain't gotta explain nuffin'.

Also, I wonder if PLD should just have the longest sustain, without touching its damage output. WAR and DRK can keep their burst potential, but PLD will just keep chugging along doing its boring consistent DPS for four or so minutes before gently hitting the floor.

PS, Fight or Flight is the best offensive (on an uptime basis) in the game. Berserk is stronger, but isn't available as often, and B4B is only as strong as FOF if you're a DRG main (plus it has a damage taken penalty). I'd punch a baby to have access to FOF as any "real" DPS.