Thread: PLD 4.0

Originally Posted by Link594

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To be honest, I kind of like the idea of that choice (of going just for Savage Blade each time for cleave priority). And if you're going for some manner of AoE parity, it would need to be stronger still, and/or truly allow that choice. You could always mess with GLD/PLD internal mechanics as well. I played around with some PLD cleave ideas a while back, listed in the signature if you're interested (toggleable weaponskill cleave on all Sword Oath attacks, and finally settled on Shield Swipe cleave in Shield Oath - see the "3.2 patchnotes I'd like to see" section). So many options for this stuff.

Heck, just imagine if we took GLD's fast-hitting motif and actually made Fast Blade have a shortened weaponskill recast, increased Riot Blade's MP return and either slapped on a debuff-extender (for Heavy, Slows, and/or Paralyze) or a light, short bleed [Goring could then cleave-extend all bleeds you caused in addition to bleeding the main target], and Savage Blade was a 200-potency cleave. Either improve the current mana uses slightly or give us another offensive, possibly AoE, option to spend mana on. Now you'd really have a choice in where to end your combo.

As for Bulwark, I feel like this would reduce the gap, which is good, but the same time, we do of course still want it to be noticeable. I'm not sure without trying to create a variety of situations/simulations in my head just what block rate increase, for how long, and how frequently, would feel best, or if it'd be good to steal some ability value off Rampart, etc., to support that. As long as Yoshi keeps to his statement that magic will never be blockable, though, I'd be much less comfortable with the idea of siphoning strength from more reliable and un-niched mitigation tools to support a physical-only one, even if essential to internal mechanics (through blocks).

[Out of curiosity, what are your thoughts on shield balance at the moment, given that Shelltron favors towers, average mitigation favors kites, and if Swipe (if it were both worthwhile and without a CD, such as if it were a 230-potency weaponskill) favors bucklers? Does that basically work already, in your opinion, or should each of those abilities have an internal balance to favor all shield types more equally?]

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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Wow, lots of stuff to reply to.

As for the first point, I don't like the idea of ignoring the glowing 3rd ability and just alternate between 2 abilities for cleave. I think you should finish the combo so you are pressing more buttons and not breaking combos. Breaking combos should feel punishing imo.

I think a really good idea would be to have another 3rd combo ability called Whirling Blade or Whirlwind that just does AoE all around you and has a spin attack animation that follows Savage Blade.

I will definitely check out the link tomorrow and get back to you, but I have to sleep to go to work tomorrow

For Bulwark, none of my suggestions would work unless magic attacks are blockable, because siphoning from rampart to make Bulwark better would be a huge no-no since Rampart affects magical attacks and Bulwark doesn't. You would definitely have to have different iterations of Bulwark and test them all to see which feels best though. I think a 90 sec Bulwark with an increase of 50% block rate for 15 sec would be fine but I obviously have no idea until you test it and make sure its balanced in relation to the other tanks. And then make Rampart have a longer CD to compensate a more available Bulwark of course. You can even change Shield Oath to instead increase block chance by 20% instead of flatly reducing it.

IMO, I feel like WAR should be the king of physical mitigation, DRK the king of magical mitigation, and PLD being a middle of the road mitigation and I think magical blocking and a focus on blocking would be the best way to do that. It also makes our playstyle focused on blocking more unique.

I would hope that Yoshi sees that magic blocking is not that outlandish, and it fits the fantasy of the class. Paladins in WoW can block magic attacks through a talent called Holy Shield (sounds familiar?), and I always thought it fits the lore because Paladins are supposed to be these holy warriors that can utilize magic to defend themselves against magic. FF PLDs use MP, and have these holy abilities such as Flash and CoS, Hallowed Ground and Spirits Within so it makes sense.

As for Shield Balance, I think that we shouldn't complicate shield types because we don't want to make the class more in depth then the other tanking classes. It wouldn't be fair to them lol. I think they should have a slight difference but not a noticeable difference, similar to racial stats. Another point to make is you can have a buckler equipped but glamoured to a tower, and then the graphic isn't matching the shield type bonus anymore. So, it would be nice if there is a slight difference, but I wouldn't want it to be meta-defining so PLDs are this class that has more depth to it when it comes to weapon selection then WAR or DRK. I mean we already are the only job that has off hands. Let's not abuse it lol

I'll prob repost my updated wishlist later updated with your feedback, and I'll take a look at the link before I do so I'll keep that in mind.

Picking an idea I came up in another topic.
Officialy, PLD's design is to be the tanks that mitigates. It has an obvious issue here, since, everytank is sturdy enough to survive each encounter. And it's a good thing, since you don't want PLD to become mandatory. But, if PLD was able to solo tank anything,it wouldn't be mandatory, but just an option. You'd chose either one PLD or two of any tanks.

The tricky part here is that some fight are designed to prevent solo tanking, like A1 where the two bosses buff each other, or A3 with the resistance down. It's as old as Titan EX and T6, though.
But, what if PLD had an ability especially for those kind of situation ?

I present you : "Divine Calling"

Recast : GCD
Cost : Nearly half of MP pool.
Effect : Gain a Divine Stack

• Under Shield Oath, each Divine Stack reduces damage received by 10% and damage dealt by 10%. Also increase enmity gain.
• Under Sword Oath, each Divine Stack increases the potency of auto-attacks by 5

Duration (To be determined)
Using Divine Calling again will put another Divine stack for a lesser duration

The idea here is something akin to Blood of the Dragon of Enochian. By timing you skills properly, you'd gain a stacking defense buff to compensate for all the stacking damage buff on ennemies. But, since the duration is lowered more and more, you'd have no choice but to lose it at one point since it would take too much time to refill your MP.

This would give depth to PLD, a skill that varies depending on your stance. And a clear but not mandatory gap on damage reduction compared to other tanks.

Originally Posted by Brian_

You're either delusional or ignorant. If you could solo tank content, everyone would solo tank content. PLD would become the only tank. We've already seen this story and since FCoB, SE has specifically designed content to kill the trend.

No, it would not. Because surviving is cool, but you also need to kill things. And if PLD had even less DPS by stacking defense buffs, the additionnal DPS would only be here to compensate.
You could achieve the same DPS by having two tanks, two healers and 4 DPS than by having 1 PLD, 2 healers and 5 DPS. And if your tank dies, you have no backup tank to fill its spot, even temporarily.

But it's a funny reaction coming from you when you specifically said in another topic that PLD should be the only tank that could pass some mitigation checks...

Originally Posted by Reynhart

But it's a funny reaction coming from you when you specifically said in another topic that PLD should be the only tank that could pass some mitigation checks...

Given that it's you, I'm not surprised that you failed to actually read anything I wrote. In the very next sentence I said that was terrible design and a garbage solution to the current tank imbalance. Funny indeed.

If you bring another DRG, NIN, MNK, etc. you don't gain just the added DPS. You gain their additional utility. You gain another trick attack, a traited mantra, dragon kick, another battle litany, another goad, etc. And, said party wide buffs would scale even higher because the buff is hitting an additional DPS and not a tank. You seem to think that a DRK / WAR is doing damage much more comparable to a DPS class than what is happening in reality. The only thing you lose is Path or Reprisal depending on which co-tank you are dropping.

Originally Posted by Brian_

In the very next sentence I said that was terrible design and a garbage solution to the current tank imbalance.

Which this is not. Allowing PLD to solo tank doesn't mean that it'd be the only solution or even the best.

Originally Posted by Brian_

If you bring another DRG, NIN, MNK, etc. you don't gain just the added DPS. You gain their additional utility.

It's still a matter of raidwide DPS, which is the decidibng factor of what solution is the best.
Yes, tanks do less damage than DPS, but it wouldn't be that difficult to adjust PLD so that 1-focused-on-mitigation-PLD+1DPS do the same average damage of any-tank-duo (that doesn't use a focused-on-mitigaiton-PLD).

Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

better utility/healing

PLD could be "shadow" DPS if their utility allowed healers to spend more time doing damage, instead of the current situation of tank (and only tank) DPS needing to carry the last bit of the check. Divine Veil seems like it was aimed at this role, but it's such a long CD it doesn't really reduce healer load all that much.