Just got wheeling thrust.... Can someone explain the point of it to me?

[Zenji]

Dragoons are extremely well balanced, the proc attacks are there to add an extra dynamic to the rotation. 2.0 drg was very bland.

[RiceisNice]

I also never said that other jobs don't have wasted skill slots. I'm specifically only talking about Wheeling Thrust, and how realistically, there's not much reason (other than maybe laziness) for them to not have put more thought into a better way to implement it. And NIN's abilities, and other jobs new abilities. There's flaws everywhere, but WT is what I'm speaking on.

So you would rather have them add a trait at 58 instead of a new ability, which will lead to the exactly same functional job at 60? That really doesn't sound like a good reason to bring up a debate to be honest.
They can change it in the future, but that means redoing how the previous skills works without WT (so it effectively changes nothing for DRGs that are already level 60) or adding a new skill that requires the complete rebalancing of the job, or add in another useless skill in it's place (which then brings to DRG having 6 different skills compared to everyone only having 5). You bring up the flaw but also offer no solution that can both be easily implemented and practical at the current state of the game because like I've said before, the job itself still functions really well and performs really well, and all of their skills sitll serve a purpose despite the implementation.

I keep referencing the other jobs because honestly, it's relevant to the fact that it's roughly the same concepet of having a "wasted skill". I didn't say that you don't think the other jobs have useless skills, but on that basis DRGs are not special in this regard that honestly should spur such a long debate to have it changed, nevermind the fact that WT still actually does something anyway. They could have implemented it as a trait, but whats the point if it leads to the same end product unless you really want the extra skill slot.

Realistically, what do you want to be done? Because the only thing I see right now from you is that you're debating on it's implementation for the sake of debating. There could be solutions, but if it effectively leads to the exact, same DRG we have now, then what's the point?

[Nominous]

So you would rather have them add a trait at 58 instead of a new ability, which will lead to the exactly same functional job at 60?

That's a weird conclusion to jump to, based on what I've been saying. In any case.



I'd change the wording of BoTD slightly to say something to the effect of... "Additional Effect: Grants Fang and Claw or Wheeling Thrust when completing a combo with Chaos Thrust or Full Thrust." Instead of sharper, or enhanced, since the skills wouldn't exist separately in a perfect world. Then, this is what the 56 skill would look like:

Lv. 56- Final Thrust
Delivers an attack with a potency of 200.
290 when executed from the rear while under the effect of Wheeling Thrust.
290 when executed from the flank while under the effect of Fang and Claw.
Can only be executed while under the effect of Blood of the Dragon.

Alternatively, keep everything the same, just consolidate Wheeling Thrust and F&C both into level 56.

As for the 58 skill, anything could have worked. oGCD, quality of life, utility, buff, defensive, anything. WT in it's current iteration is actually nothing more than a palette swap of F&C, that creates a 50/50 for you. No extra potency, no added flexibility or mobility, no effects, or anything else. Even Blizzard IV, and Fire IV, which have the same potency, have different benefits and detriments. By this logic, almost anything that has real viable use, would have been a more worthy 58 skill than WT. And even with all of that...


Like I said in a previous post, if you read... I actually welcome the uses of WT (even if it's functionally the same as F&C), as well as the depth it brings to a once overly simplistic job. I also said that I genuinely doubt they'd change it. Even if they did, they'd basically have no other choice but to do the same for other jobs who feel similarly, and that's asking for basically an entire battle system revamp. That being said, I thought I'd shed a reason as to why the thoughts on WT are valid, and why people are rightly annoyed at it. It's worthwhile conversation in my book. After all, while it's still welcomed complexity, it's always good to give devs feedback for future adjustments or expansions.

[JackFross]

As for the 58 skill to take WT's place, anything could have worked. oGCD, quality of life, utility, buff, defensive, anything.

Quoting myself because people don't read old posts.

My main argument against giving Dragoons a "fifth" skill (since we already get 5...) is that we're ALREADY one of the highest DPS classes in the game AND we bring Battle Litany to the field, which is a huge gain for the party, believe it or not. If you gave us something else, it's gonna fall into one of these categories:
1. Messes with the current *beautiful* rotation, making things wonky and gross.
2. New utility move that makes Dragoons more attractive than they already are (90% of raid groups run one because BL+BRD/MCH buff).
3. New worthless skill like Feint that will *never* be used outside of certain situations which would actually still end up falling under 2 if it's *useful*.
4. New oGCD skill to boost our dps by a marginal amount we don't need to be boosted by while forcing us to squeeze YET ANOTHER skill into the first 24s of the fight.

None of those options are good. I want none of that.

Give me a legitimate thing we as Dragoons would WANT TO SEE as a fifth skill, and I'll maybe say your argument has merit. Give me an idea that doesn't fall into one of the four categories above and I'll listen.

People are annoyed by it because it makes the class trickier to play than it was pre-3.0. Literally every post complaining about it can be boiled down to exactly that. Every single one of them will quote this and say, "No, it doesn't make it trickier or harder, it makes it just so annoying." That's the exact same argument. I can't use it properly and therefore, it is broken. This is faulty logic, so let's stop justifying such baseless rancor.

[RiceisNice]

Like I said in a previous post, if you read... I actually welcome the uses of WT (even if it's functionally the same as F&C), as well as the depth it brings to a once overly simplistic job. I also said that I genuinely doubt they'd change it. Even if they did, they'd basically have no other choice but to do the same for other jobs who feel similarly, and that's asking for basically an entire battle system revamp. That being said, I thought I'd shed a reason as to why the thoughts on WT are valid, and why people are rightly annoyed at it. It's worthwhile conversation in my book. After all, while it's still welcomed complexity, it's always good to give devs feedback for future adjustments or expansions.

Your reasons are not theirs though is what you'd have to understand, especially if you're going to debate in their place but come from a different perspective. And you're contradicting yourself which is confusing on exactly what you want, (because I do read your posts) especially when you say

WT in it's current iteration is actually nothing more than a palette swap of F&C, that creates a 50/50 for you. No extra potency, no added flexibility or mobility, no effects, or anything else.

Then say

I actually welcome the uses of WT (even if it's functionally the same as F&C), as well as the depth it brings to a once overly simplistic job.

I cannot tell if you think WT is a useless skill that adds nothing, or something that has uses and adds depth.

[Nihility]

This will sound harsh, because that is exactly how I mean it to be.

What you're arguing against is *exactly* the reason the skill exists. It's the same thing as any of the following skills:

Bard
Warden's Paean

Ninja
Shadewalker
Smoke Screen

Paladin
Clemency

Are you going to whine about how all these jobs got shafted, too, by getting a skill that is practically worthless? At least our skill is actually used regularly. It adds fun to the class, makes it dynamic and way more enjoyable to play than it was back in 2.x. I would say this is subjective, but it really isn't. Dragoon was boring and rote. I've said this in this thread before. Now, it's entertaining. Variable. Makes you think, weigh options, and play way faster than you did back before Blood of the Dragon was a thing. Complaining about this because it "slows you down" or whatever you wanna argue is simply saying "I can't deal with this change, because I'm not fast enough to react."

The only response I can give to you is shape up or ship out. Learn to play with it. It slows *literally* nothing down. You have enough time to react, move, hit Jump (the biggest animation lock skill we have) and get off your positional with 0 delay. Please give me an example of a time where this slows you down so I can more definitively tell you that you should practice more.


I apologize for being rude, but it is really frustrating that I've had to outline this a million times in this same thread and still have people parroting the same nonsense again and again.

And, just to prove my point before someone calls foul!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4US9XMgNgC8

Watch my opener in this run. I hit CT [rear] > Leg+PS > FaC [flank] > Jump > Phleb while stacking rear before hitting Jump - and I have 0 downtime on the GCD.

You also left out the wanderer's minuet, and gauss barrel, and dissipation, and all the other ones people don't like but your also missing the point.

Even the most outwardly useless skill which i would probably argue is shadewalker doesn't really have any negative effects about it. Sure it's kind of a bummer of a skill but it doesn't really have any downside and even if it is miniscule it does add something to the class

Wheeling thrust or Fang and Claw(it doesn't really matter which, just wheeling thrust gets the scrutiny since it's the second one) doesn't really serve any purpose whatsoever and it is forced upon you. No dps increase, no utility, just extra work.
If you weren't forced to learn skills in order the top progression guild's dragoons would most likely all skip fang and claw because a rear positional is more useful and why would you want to do something that just adds more variables with no benefit when your trying to push the bleeding edge of new content?

You can't really say that about any other skill. There would be no tangible reason to skip learning shadewalker since the worst case scenario is just not using it.

There's really no reason it needs to be two separate skills at all as well.
They could have very easily just made it be "Fang and Claw: potency 200, extends dragon's blood duration" at 56 and the dragon's blood buffs be +90 to next fang and claw potency if executed at rear/flank.

When I say this I am not approaching from a "I enjoy the mechanic" standpoint at all btw
Just from a strictly numbers "this skill introduces a larger margin of error for no benefit whatsoever"

[RiceisNice]

Just from a strictly numbers "this skill introduces a larger margin of error for no benefit whatsoever"

WM/GB causes you to lose DPS in the same sense that WT does; if you can't do it properly, its a damage loss compared to before. The difference is that WM/GB when you get it is objectively a damage loss, and it used to be a damage loss up to and including at 60 until they had to buff it. WT serves its purpose in adding some sort of dynamic factor to DRG, but if you're against that, then welp.

WM/GB also causes you to do extra work for arbitrarily no damage gain (unless it's for AoEing) if you really think that way of WT, and only when you get the new abilities (which are locked behind WM/GB) does it become a damage increase. But we could say the same that GS is locked behind WT because well, you sorta need to get WT first.

Trying to use wardens paeon is actually a damage loss due to the rather long cast time, same with clemency on top of the fact it can get interrupted and resets the paladin's combo.

[Nominous]

I cannot tell if you think WT is a useless skill that adds nothing, or something that has uses and adds depth.

They aren't mutually exclusive. I can see how that comes off as confusing, but it's just easier to say that both statements are true. In a way.

Adding difficulty, strictly speaking, is technically adding something. It also technically has it's uses. However, since it has the same use as Fang and Claw, they're interchangeable. You can say, "Fang and Claw has 290 potency and increases BoTD by 15 seconds" and you'd be right. You could say the same for Wheeling Thrust, and you'd be right. Therefore, their only defining characteristics are the positional requirements, when all else is stripped from the equation. That does not warrant it being a 58 skill all on it's own.

As nice as it is to have a more reaction based rotation, it doesn't bring anything new, after considering F&C.

Quoting myself because people don't read old posts.


People are annoyed by it because it makes the class trickier to play than it was pre-3.0. Literally every post complaining about it can be boiled down to exactly that. Every single one of them will quote this and say, "No, it doesn't make it trickier or harder, it makes it just so annoying." That's the exact same argument. I can't use it properly and therefore, it is broken. This is faulty logic, so let's stop justifying such baseless rancor.

Eh, not every complaint is gonna be about the difficulty. I mean, me for example. I thought more DRG were just disappointed that 58 could have technically been used for some other skill, not the fact that it made our rotation more difficult. Then again, I give this community the benefit of the doubt quite often. In any case, there's definitely better things that could have been added in at 58 than that. Nobody could name something that doesn't exist because there's too many possibilities, and knowing what's TOO powerful is something only the devs can decide. I mean, I would think a skill like Perfect Balance would have never been created for MNK, but it's there. I would have never thought up Blood of the Dragon, but it's there. When 70 is the new cap, they'll have decided on new skills then, too. They have the creativity to have thought of a way to consolidate those 2 skills into one level, and most definitely to have a different 58 skill.

Anyways, I digress.

[CookieMonsta]

They aren't mutually exclusive. I can see how that comes off as confusing, but it's just easier to say that both statements are true. In a way.

As nice as it is to have a more reaction based rotation, it doesn't bring anything new, after considering F&C.

I agree it was a bad idea to have WT as its own stand-alone skill.
I can see what they were trying to do with F&C + WT but the trouble was more the implementation. In its current form it would of made more sense to have WT + F&C be given at the same time @ level 56, have a trait that gives the ability for WT + F&C to extend BotD @ 58 and Geirskogul at 60.

If we go the path of an RnG-less style, they could've done something like you can choose to WT or F&C instead of Proc after either CT/TTT combos, the differences are WT has 290 Rear potency, F&C has only 200 potency but extends BotD.

[fm_fenrir]

Nobody could name something that doesn't exist because there's too many possibilities, and knowing what's TOO powerful is something only the devs can decide.

You can kind of gauge how OP any alterations to WT would be, though.

The case of WT as a fifth hit
As it is, DRG burns 70+60+60+60 for its combos (FT/CT+4). In the specific case of FT combo, with a 2.41s GCD, that's 1000 potency every 9.64 seconds, at a net cost of 160TP (250 TP spent, minus 90 TP regained naturally). Adding a fifth hit at 60 TP makes this theoretical WT combo 1290 potency (assuming nothing else changes) every 12.05 seconds, at a net cost of 190TP (310 TP spent, minus 120 natural regain). It makes DRG hugely more TP efficient to make WT a fifth hit on the combo, in addition to wrecking DRG's debuff rotation with disembowel/CT/phlebotemize due to the extra GCDs on both combos. Increasing WT's TP cost to compensate would just make it useless or get dumped when you start running low on TP, wrecking the timing on BOD/geirskogul.
Additionally, if WT was the only way to get BOD time extensions, it would be horrible to maintain BOD (because it adds 15 and it takes 12 to get there); if F&C and WT extended it, it would be trivial to maintain and you'd only be worrying about geirskogul's CD. That's another massive DPS buff (or loss, depending how you want WT to work).

The case of WT as an oGCD
Making WT an off-CD jump-style attack instead is even more TP efficient, because you get 200-260 potency out of it, depending if BOD buffs its potency like jump/spineshatter. It's another ranged heavy hit that doesn't cost TP, and it's yet another oGCD that needs to be weaved in during an opener. Even if it was a 30s CD like jump, it would make DRG's burst absolutely ridiculous during b4b windows. DRG's threat generation is absolutely out of control as-is, this just guarantees that going through an opener will require ending with elusive jump instead of holding it for later in the fight. You also won't have elusive for the second b4b run, so good luck with whatever threat you've generated in those 90 seconds.

The case of WT as it is
Maintains DRG's TP efficiency as described above, allows BOD to be easily maintained, and adds a small inconvenience to DRGs that don't move around a lot. It's kind of a dead slot as far as skills go, but the alternatives give DRG massive buffs that it doesn't need.