Just got wheeling thrust.... Can someone explain the point of it to me?

[Nominous]

I'd rather have my extra button be used for a skill that makes the class more fun than have it be devoted to something useless or OP.

Eh, speak for yourself. In an expansion, having 2 duplicate skills when we're getting a kit extension is kind of less than pleasing. The people who dislike the complications without benefit are right to dislike it, but that's not the worst thing. Once you get past the difficulty, it just seems like you could have really been given something else. And what you don't realize, is that it's not that black and white. It's not like they only make skills in the OP or useless variety. They're smart enough to come up with Enochian, BoTD, Chakra, Dreadwyrm Trance, and more, they most definitely could have come up with something useful for DRG at 58. Did we really need a 15% crit boost? We definitely lived without it, but now that we have it, you don't consider it useless or OP. So yes, while we may not 'need' anything, you never feel like you need something until you have it, then you wonder how you lived without it.

Again, this doesn't mean you have to remove WT, or make it a 5th hit, or those weird conclusions other people came to.

[Nihility]

It seems to me they pretty easily could have made the whole "4th combo" skills a single attack and the blood of the dragon buffs modify which side gets the bonus potency.

I can understand the complaining pretty easily
Like sure ninja gets 2 enmity modifiers that are usually not needed but they are also not forced on you and they are very useful when needed
Even if it's minor you feel like you gained something

or the bard/machinist stances, Sure they are kind of useless when you first get them but they also aren't forced on you and overall do end up giving you a gain for the inconvenience

with dragoon when I hit 58 it was just like... here's more stuff you have to keep watch of and do, you can't turn it off, and you gain absolutely nothing for the extra effort.
It's like a job transferring you to a new location that increases your commute by an hour with no pay raise. It just feels bad
Even a rarely needed situational skill like a 1 Ilm punch type effect that has to combo after feint, useless most of the time but great when it's needed. You'd at least feel like you gained something more than -1 button

[Houston009]

I'm actually looking forward to leveling DRG come 3.1 (bonus exp!). 2.0 DRG was kinda bland to me, but 3.0 DRG actually looks pretty fun, my melee partner(DRG) has been trying to get to level it for months. Maintaining BoTD and maximizing Gierskogul use seems interesting. While F&C and WT mixes up the already straightforward DRG rotation.

Even if it's minor you feel like you gained something

And this, I felt like I gained absolutely nothing upon obtaining Smoke Screen as my FIRST new HW ability.

[Dante_V]

I loved acquiring this skill, it actually made the job interesting and made it very easy to distinguish the good from the bad dragoons.

[Zenji]

Dragoons are extremely well balanced, the proc attacks are there to add an extra dynamic to the rotation. 2.0 drg was very bland.

[Dante_V]

I still like the skill. The developers did an excellent job implementing it and designing it.

Reading this thread just reminds me why not everyone is a game designer and that most people have no idea what general balance and difficulty floors are and how important they are to the life of this game.

[Nominous]

Reading this thread just reminds me why not everyone is a game designer and that most people have no idea what general balance and difficulty floors are and how important they are to the life of this game.

What a terribly condescending post.


Honestly, none of the people here are game designers, but you don't need to be a game designer to know when something feels off. The same way you don't need to be a doctor to tell someone they're sick. Now obviously, some people just aren't going to be happy with anything, and complain at any sense of difficulty, complexity, depth, or anything not straightforward or free. But if we're talking objectively, Wheeling Thrust still isn't the shining example of good game design and implementation. And it's obvious.

I won't speak for everyone, but no idea what general balance and difficulty floors are? Some people might not, but there's still intelligent people who'd agree that if you're going to give difficulty for something, there should be a benefit for the difficulty. It's basic game design logic. Headshots in FPS games are ridiculously hard to pull off without some skill or practice, but the benefit for this difficulty, is instant kill. Certain combos in fighting games are non-lenient and require great precision as well as execution. The benefit for that, is giving them higher damage, and sometimes better setups. Simple logic. Not to mention, making WT a simple 50/50 doesn't 'balance' the dps increase. It's not that difficult to deal with. BoTD and GK is the risk vs. reward system we got, WT is just... legitimately trying to confuse you with no perceived benefit for doing so. And my belief is, that's not the worst part. The worst part is that we had 5 skills to be given in HW, and one of those spots got wasted by a duplicate. Again, you can have the difficulty, the 50/50, and balance without putting WT at 58 when it could have potentially been other things.

Even looking at examples from our own game, look at SMN. It isn't the greatest DPS now, but look at what it got and how well it all syncs up with their job with NO duplicate skills. They got increased difficulty AND damage through Dreadwyrm Trance (like we got through BoTD), Ruin 3 which is only a DPS increase where it's meant to be used, Tri-Disaster is arguably broken, and has no negative impact on damage, Painflare has uses, and can be a DPS increase, and Deathflare is hilariously powerful. They have very obvious examples of things that are hilariously strong with very little drawback. WAR is another example of this. Deliverance and Fell Cleave? Where's the 'general balance and difficulty floor' there? It does nothing but increase the difficulty a healer has healing them, not their actual ability to play the job.

[RiceisNice]

But if we're talking objectively, Wheeling Thrust still isn't the shining example of good game design and implementation. And it's obvious.

Objectively they could have done it better (which can be said for other jobs too, not just DRG), but the fact remains that WT still serves it's purpose in adding another check to differentiate a mediocre DRG from a good one.

I won't speak for everyone..

Then stop doing so, especially when some posts are directed to general people and not you specifically. Espesically when people want to add more things to the current state of DRG and not understand why they don't need to be better than the way they are now.

... still intelligent people who'd agree that if you're going to give difficulty for something, there should be a benefit for the difficulty. Simple logic. Not to mention, making WT a simple 50/50 doesn't 'balance' the dps increase.

Again doesn't apply to just DRG. BRD and MCH get WM/GB that acts as a damage loss in a normal circumstance until they get more abilties added to it. The new abilties locked behind WM/GB are in the same sense as GS being locked behind WT since it all comes together under a common mechanic (specifically BotD).

The worst part is that we had 5 skills to be given in HW, and one of those spots got wasted by a duplicate. Again, you can have the difficulty, the 50/50, and balance without putting WT at 58 when it could have potentially been other things.

DRG is not unique in this case so I don't get why it's such a big problem for them, especially when there are also skills that are flat out wasted because it serves no practical use and actively detriments some of the jobs for trying to use it. Yes it can be a better thing, but at this point and with the current state of DRG, it really feels like this is a problem only because you don't have an extra skill that possibly isn't needed to begin with. when every other job has 5 skills (or effectively 4)

but look at what it got and how well it all syncs up with their job with NO duplicate skills.

If you really want to bring up other jobs, some have it far worse than DRG where their playstyle has not changed at all, being broken at some points and hell, two different jobs that have a lvl 52 skill that is functionally the same in every aspect. At this point I'm really tempted to say "get over it" if duplicated skills is a problem and bring up other jobs in comparison,

They have very obvious examples of things that are hilariously strong with very little drawback. Where's the 'general balance and difficulty floor' there? It does nothing but increase the difficulty a healer has healing them, not their actual ability to play the job.

Difficulty is subjective, as well as what people find to be fun. You have people who like DRG the way it plays now with WT/FnC's interaction with BotD. I actually prefer MCH even though argubily a good wildfire is harder to pull off than a buffed-barrage on BRD. Heck you have people that are actively preferring BLM over SMN despite enochian busting their stones. This honestly doesn't have much relevance to bring up in comparison, but considering that it;s a new expansion, you sorta need to add something new to evolve the jobs from their 2.0 counterpart. Difficulty is to the player's expectations and preference.

You're bringing up so many perspectives I'm not even sure what you want right now. Do you want an extra skill on DRG? Do you want it to be "easier" on the same level of SMN/WAR because the idea of skill flooring is poorly executed?

Like I said, you can't perceive everything you need until you have it. Some things are more obvious than others. Like the fact that MNK could definitely use more TP sustain. That was something that was obvious that they needed. DRG didn't really have that.

Then please stop perceiving WT by itself, but rather with everything at level 60.

Don't need". So really, that's not a strong point to make, that we "Don't need anything". We don't know that .

You don't need anything in the current state of the game. You don't especially need more dps, mobility, survivability or utility compared to other melees because quite frankly DRG has it pretty well in in all of those areas compared to NIN and MNK.

And again, WT is not a "Gate" to anything like you keep insinuating. WT doesn't open up further possibilities or higher DPS. WM/GB are gates BECAUSE they become DPS increases once you get more skills.

WT opens up GS, unless you're going to tell me that you learn GS without ever learning WT. WM/GB are gates because the skills are locked behind learning and using said ability.

[Nominous]

stuffs

Well, for one, you're replying to a post that I'm not really quoting you on. That was a different argument entirely, for a different purpose, so of course there's different things being discussed. Different points to prove, or speak on. It's not a matter of wanting different things, just different facets of the same issue.


Two, I continue to reiterate that I don't speak for everyone because of silly accusations like you're making. It's too easy for someone to think that I am, even if I clearly say "In my opinion" or explicitly stating I'm not. I use 'we' as a way to define DRG, because I am one, not because of any plans to speak for others. And further on that point, just because I (I'm not sure if you were trying to allude to me there) feel as if one skill could have been dealt with differently doesn't mean all of a sudden I think DRG is awful, or not where they need to be.

You continue to make strange conclusions based on what I'm saying. I never say, or allude to the idea that DRG is a crap job. I never insinuate that we need something more than we've got. I'm saying it would have been nice to have 5 all new abilities, as opposed to 4, with one that only has the actual purpose of giving us challenge. I'm not sure how that translates into, "We need more!"

It's like if someone brings you Pokemon Blue for your birthday, and someone else brings you Pokemon Red. It's not like you can't see that Red has some difference, however slight. It's not even about the strength of the two games collectively, or the franchise at all. It's as simple as just wanting to have two separate games or gifts for your birthday. Same concept I'm trying to explain with WT.

[whiskeybravo]

I think a lot of this is just trying to justify an argument that doesn't really need to be justified, on both accounts. It's a matter of perspective. Some people feel shafted about WT, others like it the way it is. It doesn't change the outcome though, they probably aren't going to redesign DRG, not because it's right or wrong but because this is a personal belief people have. It's not something that needs to be changed in order to fix DRG. It's not broken - I'm sure both sides would agree on that. The best we can hope for is they listen to everyone's feedback and keep that in mind for the future.