Just got wheeling thrust.... Can someone explain the point of it to me?

[RiceisNice]

I also never said that other jobs don't have wasted skill slots. I'm specifically only talking about Wheeling Thrust, and how realistically, there's not much reason (other than maybe laziness) for them to not have put more thought into a better way to implement it. And NIN's abilities, and other jobs new abilities. There's flaws everywhere, but WT is what I'm speaking on.

So you would rather have them add a trait at 58 instead of a new ability, which will lead to the exactly same functional job at 60? That really doesn't sound like a good reason to bring up a debate to be honest.
They can change it in the future, but that means redoing how the previous skills works without WT (so it effectively changes nothing for DRGs that are already level 60) or adding a new skill that requires the complete rebalancing of the job, or add in another useless skill in it's place (which then brings to DRG having 6 different skills compared to everyone only having 5). You bring up the flaw but also offer no solution that can both be easily implemented and practical at the current state of the game because like I've said before, the job itself still functions really well and performs really well, and all of their skills sitll serve a purpose despite the implementation.

I keep referencing the other jobs because honestly, it's relevant to the fact that it's roughly the same concepet of having a "wasted skill". I didn't say that you don't think the other jobs have useless skills, but on that basis DRGs are not special in this regard that honestly should spur such a long debate to have it changed, nevermind the fact that WT still actually does something anyway. They could have implemented it as a trait, but whats the point if it leads to the same end product unless you really want the extra skill slot.

Realistically, what do you want to be done? Because the only thing I see right now from you is that you're debating on it's implementation for the sake of debating. There could be solutions, but if it effectively leads to the exact, same DRG we have now, then what's the point?

[Nominous]

So you would rather have them add a trait at 58 instead of a new ability, which will lead to the exactly same functional job at 60?

That's a weird conclusion to jump to, based on what I've been saying. In any case.



I'd change the wording of BoTD slightly to say something to the effect of... "Additional Effect: Grants Fang and Claw or Wheeling Thrust when completing a combo with Chaos Thrust or Full Thrust." Instead of sharper, or enhanced, since the skills wouldn't exist separately in a perfect world. Then, this is what the 56 skill would look like:

Lv. 56- Final Thrust
Delivers an attack with a potency of 200.
290 when executed from the rear while under the effect of Wheeling Thrust.
290 when executed from the flank while under the effect of Fang and Claw.
Can only be executed while under the effect of Blood of the Dragon.

Alternatively, keep everything the same, just consolidate Wheeling Thrust and F&C both into level 56.

As for the 58 skill, anything could have worked. oGCD, quality of life, utility, buff, defensive, anything. WT in it's current iteration is actually nothing more than a palette swap of F&C, that creates a 50/50 for you. No extra potency, no added flexibility or mobility, no effects, or anything else. Even Blizzard IV, and Fire IV, which have the same potency, have different benefits and detriments. By this logic, almost anything that has real viable use, would have been a more worthy 58 skill than WT. And even with all of that...


Like I said in a previous post, if you read... I actually welcome the uses of WT (even if it's functionally the same as F&C), as well as the depth it brings to a once overly simplistic job. I also said that I genuinely doubt they'd change it. Even if they did, they'd basically have no other choice but to do the same for other jobs who feel similarly, and that's asking for basically an entire battle system revamp. That being said, I thought I'd shed a reason as to why the thoughts on WT are valid, and why people are rightly annoyed at it. It's worthwhile conversation in my book. After all, while it's still welcomed complexity, it's always good to give devs feedback for future adjustments or expansions.

[JackFross]

As for the 58 skill to take WT's place, anything could have worked. oGCD, quality of life, utility, buff, defensive, anything.

Quoting myself because people don't read old posts.

My main argument against giving Dragoons a "fifth" skill (since we already get 5...) is that we're ALREADY one of the highest DPS classes in the game AND we bring Battle Litany to the field, which is a huge gain for the party, believe it or not. If you gave us something else, it's gonna fall into one of these categories:
1. Messes with the current *beautiful* rotation, making things wonky and gross.
2. New utility move that makes Dragoons more attractive than they already are (90% of raid groups run one because BL+BRD/MCH buff).
3. New worthless skill like Feint that will *never* be used outside of certain situations which would actually still end up falling under 2 if it's *useful*.
4. New oGCD skill to boost our dps by a marginal amount we don't need to be boosted by while forcing us to squeeze YET ANOTHER skill into the first 24s of the fight.

None of those options are good. I want none of that.

Give me a legitimate thing we as Dragoons would WANT TO SEE as a fifth skill, and I'll maybe say your argument has merit. Give me an idea that doesn't fall into one of the four categories above and I'll listen.

People are annoyed by it because it makes the class trickier to play than it was pre-3.0. Literally every post complaining about it can be boiled down to exactly that. Every single one of them will quote this and say, "No, it doesn't make it trickier or harder, it makes it just so annoying." That's the exact same argument. I can't use it properly and therefore, it is broken. This is faulty logic, so let's stop justifying such baseless rancor.

[RiceisNice]

Like I said in a previous post, if you read... I actually welcome the uses of WT (even if it's functionally the same as F&C), as well as the depth it brings to a once overly simplistic job. I also said that I genuinely doubt they'd change it. Even if they did, they'd basically have no other choice but to do the same for other jobs who feel similarly, and that's asking for basically an entire battle system revamp. That being said, I thought I'd shed a reason as to why the thoughts on WT are valid, and why people are rightly annoyed at it. It's worthwhile conversation in my book. After all, while it's still welcomed complexity, it's always good to give devs feedback for future adjustments or expansions.

Your reasons are not theirs though is what you'd have to understand, especially if you're going to debate in their place but come from a different perspective. And you're contradicting yourself which is confusing on exactly what you want, (because I do read your posts) especially when you say

WT in it's current iteration is actually nothing more than a palette swap of F&C, that creates a 50/50 for you. No extra potency, no added flexibility or mobility, no effects, or anything else.

Then say

I actually welcome the uses of WT (even if it's functionally the same as F&C), as well as the depth it brings to a once overly simplistic job.

I cannot tell if you think WT is a useless skill that adds nothing, or something that has uses and adds depth.

[Nominous]

I cannot tell if you think WT is a useless skill that adds nothing, or something that has uses and adds depth.

They aren't mutually exclusive. I can see how that comes off as confusing, but it's just easier to say that both statements are true. In a way.

Adding difficulty, strictly speaking, is technically adding something. It also technically has it's uses. However, since it has the same use as Fang and Claw, they're interchangeable. You can say, "Fang and Claw has 290 potency and increases BoTD by 15 seconds" and you'd be right. You could say the same for Wheeling Thrust, and you'd be right. Therefore, their only defining characteristics are the positional requirements, when all else is stripped from the equation. That does not warrant it being a 58 skill all on it's own.

As nice as it is to have a more reaction based rotation, it doesn't bring anything new, after considering F&C.

Quoting myself because people don't read old posts.


People are annoyed by it because it makes the class trickier to play than it was pre-3.0. Literally every post complaining about it can be boiled down to exactly that. Every single one of them will quote this and say, "No, it doesn't make it trickier or harder, it makes it just so annoying." That's the exact same argument. I can't use it properly and therefore, it is broken. This is faulty logic, so let's stop justifying such baseless rancor.

Eh, not every complaint is gonna be about the difficulty. I mean, me for example. I thought more DRG were just disappointed that 58 could have technically been used for some other skill, not the fact that it made our rotation more difficult. Then again, I give this community the benefit of the doubt quite often. In any case, there's definitely better things that could have been added in at 58 than that. Nobody could name something that doesn't exist because there's too many possibilities, and knowing what's TOO powerful is something only the devs can decide. I mean, I would think a skill like Perfect Balance would have never been created for MNK, but it's there. I would have never thought up Blood of the Dragon, but it's there. When 70 is the new cap, they'll have decided on new skills then, too. They have the creativity to have thought of a way to consolidate those 2 skills into one level, and most definitely to have a different 58 skill.

Anyways, I digress.

[CookieMonsta]

They aren't mutually exclusive. I can see how that comes off as confusing, but it's just easier to say that both statements are true. In a way.

As nice as it is to have a more reaction based rotation, it doesn't bring anything new, after considering F&C.

I agree it was a bad idea to have WT as its own stand-alone skill.
I can see what they were trying to do with F&C + WT but the trouble was more the implementation. In its current form it would of made more sense to have WT + F&C be given at the same time @ level 56, have a trait that gives the ability for WT + F&C to extend BotD @ 58 and Geirskogul at 60.

If we go the path of an RnG-less style, they could've done something like you can choose to WT or F&C instead of Proc after either CT/TTT combos, the differences are WT has 290 Rear potency, F&C has only 200 potency but extends BotD.

[fm_fenrir]

Nobody could name something that doesn't exist because there's too many possibilities, and knowing what's TOO powerful is something only the devs can decide.

You can kind of gauge how OP any alterations to WT would be, though.

The case of WT as a fifth hit
As it is, DRG burns 70+60+60+60 for its combos (FT/CT+4). In the specific case of FT combo, with a 2.41s GCD, that's 1000 potency every 9.64 seconds, at a net cost of 160TP (250 TP spent, minus 90 TP regained naturally). Adding a fifth hit at 60 TP makes this theoretical WT combo 1290 potency (assuming nothing else changes) every 12.05 seconds, at a net cost of 190TP (310 TP spent, minus 120 natural regain). It makes DRG hugely more TP efficient to make WT a fifth hit on the combo, in addition to wrecking DRG's debuff rotation with disembowel/CT/phlebotemize due to the extra GCDs on both combos. Increasing WT's TP cost to compensate would just make it useless or get dumped when you start running low on TP, wrecking the timing on BOD/geirskogul.
Additionally, if WT was the only way to get BOD time extensions, it would be horrible to maintain BOD (because it adds 15 and it takes 12 to get there); if F&C and WT extended it, it would be trivial to maintain and you'd only be worrying about geirskogul's CD. That's another massive DPS buff (or loss, depending how you want WT to work).

The case of WT as an oGCD
Making WT an off-CD jump-style attack instead is even more TP efficient, because you get 200-260 potency out of it, depending if BOD buffs its potency like jump/spineshatter. It's another ranged heavy hit that doesn't cost TP, and it's yet another oGCD that needs to be weaved in during an opener. Even if it was a 30s CD like jump, it would make DRG's burst absolutely ridiculous during b4b windows. DRG's threat generation is absolutely out of control as-is, this just guarantees that going through an opener will require ending with elusive jump instead of holding it for later in the fight. You also won't have elusive for the second b4b run, so good luck with whatever threat you've generated in those 90 seconds.

The case of WT as it is
Maintains DRG's TP efficiency as described above, allows BOD to be easily maintained, and adds a small inconvenience to DRGs that don't move around a lot. It's kind of a dead slot as far as skills go, but the alternatives give DRG massive buffs that it doesn't need.

[Nihility]

You can kind of gauge how OP any alterations to WT would be, though.
The case of WT as a fifth hit
As it is, DRG burns 70+60+60+60 for its combos (FT/CT+4). In the specific case of FT combo, with a 2.41s GCD, that's 1000 potency every 9.64 seconds, at a net cost of 160TP (250 TP spent, minus 90 TP regained naturally). Adding a fifth hit at 60 TP makes this theoretical WT combo 1290 potency (assuming nothing else changes) every 12.05 seconds, at a net cost of 190TP (310 TP spent, minus 120 natural regain). It makes DRG hugely more TP efficient to make WT a fifth hit on the combo, in addition to wrecking DRG's debuff rotation with disembowel/CT/phlebotemize due to the extra GCDs on both combos. Increasing WT's TP cost to compensate would just make it useless or get dumped when you start running low on TP, wrecking the timing on BOD/geirskogul.
Additionally, if WT was the only way to get BOD time extensions, it would be horrible to maintain BOD (because it adds 15 and it takes 12 to get there); if F&C and WT extended it, it would be trivial to maintain and you'd only be worrying about geirskogul's CD. That's another massive DPS buff (or loss, depending how you want WT to work).

The case of WT as an oGCD
Making WT an off-CD jump-style attack instead is even more TP efficient, because you get 200-260 potency out of it, depending if BOD buffs its potency like jump/spineshatter. It's another ranged heavy hit that doesn't cost TP, and it's yet another oGCD that needs to be weaved in during an opener. Even if it was a 30s CD like jump, it would make DRG's burst absolutely ridiculous during b4b windows. DRG's threat generation is absolutely out of control as-is, this just guarantees that going through an opener will require ending with elusive jump instead of holding it for later in the fight. You also won't have elusive for the second b4b run, so good luck with whatever threat you've generated in those 90 seconds.

The case of WT as it is
Maintains DRG's TP efficiency as described above, allows BOD to be easily maintained, and adds a small inconvenience to DRGs that don't move around a lot. It's kind of a dead slot as far as skills go, but the alternatives give DRG massive buffs that it doesn't need.

but just as he said. there are so many possibilities
what if it was changed into an alternate jump that shares cooldown with spineshatter dive with a different effect
or made it into a utility jump skill like shukuchi
or a debuff of some sort with low damage
or a buff your next attack sort of deal, they could even have one that invokes a global cooldown that's only useful for buffing damage during travel time
or a lowish-potency skill with a cooldown that gives blood of the dragon time that is just there as a backup in case something screws up and your about to lose it
or an aoe that chains with doomspike for a real aoe combo
or any of a million other things it could be other than claw and fang part 2

[fm_fenrir]

what if it was changed into an alternate jump that shares cooldown with spineshatter dive with a different effect

A closer that doesn't give diminishing returns that the tank has to worry about? Net improvement, never use spineshatter again unless you direly need the second stun.

or made it into a utility jump skill like shukuchi

DRG already has two gap closers on separate CDs, making it the most mobile DPS in running fights. You can use elusive as a third in a pinch, but it's slightly less targeted. Adding a fourth mobility skill?

or a debuff of some sort with low damage

You already have CT as the highest potency skill in the game, and Phlebotomize is super strong, too. You also have extremely strong debuff utility in Disembowel. What would this do besides sit next to Feint on the bench?

or a buff your next attack sort of deal, they could even have one that invokes a global cooldown that's only useful for buffing damage during travel time

This one I could get behind, but it would have to break combos or you'd just use it to close b4b life surged FT for 6k damage. If it broke combos, though, it wouldn't be terribly useful except maybe buffing a jump or DFD.

or a lowish-potency skill with a cooldown that gives blood of the dragon time that is just there as a backup in case something screws up and your about to lose it

Managing BOD is pretty much the only difficult thing DRG has to worry about these days. One whole buff, that you can refresh just by doing your regular rotations. Losing BOD is almost always a choice of front-loading damage with Geirskogul, not "oh no I walked away from the mob for too long", in which case you'd Geirskogul to clear BOD anyway.

or an aoe that chains with doomspike for a real aoe combo

I love doomspike, it will forever be slot 5 on my hotbar because it's so damn useful for trash pulls. However, it's also 160 potency in a larger column than overpower--what would the combo be? 180 potency? 200 potency? Why wouldn't you want Doomspike->this thing to annihilate trash pulls and obviate NIN/MNK forever? Add BOD and Geirskogul for even more DPS on large pulls, the one thing DRG is kind of terrible at.

or any of a million other things it could be other than claw and fang part 2

I would suggest giving it additional enmity and branching out with FT/CT so you could legitimately hold threat if you need to be OT for whatever reason, but that's really just a suggestion for me more than a useful one. So many experts where the MT... Doesn't. /sigh

edit: Don't get me wrong, I don't specifically love WT as it is, but like I said before, DRG is extremely strong and pretty much any changes will either make it super OP or the alternative will be even more useless. I'm not trying to put you guys down, just pointing out where balance would break if you made these changes.