AST, MCH, DRK and their failure as new jobs at HW launch

[Arabian_Wolf]

All those edgy wannabes flocking into DRK till they reach brayflox nm where their true colors shine and abandon the job and/or become insane and be a "DPS" DRK.

[Fyce]

Please quote me where I was being rude nor aggressive as you are coz I can't find it... plus I would like toadd I thought those jobs were failures "at" launch, as precised in the title I think you missed. Those jobs have been corrected since, at a different scale. But the thing is they needed correction, and that's wwhere my point is.

Well, if you weren't saying that SE was a bunch of lazy amateurs, which serves no purpose to your argument, that would've been a better start.

You obviously don't understand the amount of work 3 new jobs is or that you can't make balance tests the same way you do internaly and with thousands of players. Besides, you clearly don't take into account the starting period after the release of the Ninja where that job was completly overpowered. As someone already said, it's better for the balance to need to buff a new underpowered job rather than nerfing it because it's overpowered.
Especially with new challenges like Alexander.

So, yes, the new jobs needed adjustments... but that was quite an obvious thing from the start, even before they were released. The dev team was already ready to get some player feedback and was prepared to make these adjustments. And that's what we got.
It's only two months after the release of Heavensward and the jobs are now fine. Since your point was so obvious everybody know about it and the fact that adjustments were already made, I think you can understand that some people might think that your post was some kind of disguised troll just to throw a bunch of bad adjectives in the face of SE.

[Amberyl]

Better to be under-powered on launch than over-powered, like Ninja was.

This. (min char)

[LineageRazor]

Also anyone think that the type of playstyle MCH and BRD bring is not really compatible with FFXIV? I mean the typical archetype of a bard-playstyle (which is what both seem to be based off of) is support. I don't see a support-type queue slot :| In my eyes, teams are essentially trashing a DPS slot in favor of making it support, thereby gimping your DPS.

If well implemented, the support abilities of a semi-support DPS should equal or exceed the DPS they're sacrificing; they may be lower DPS, but they make up for it by making their team members HIGHER DPS. 1 + 1 = 0.8 + 1.2. That's a big reason why BRDs were in such high demand in FFXI; BRDs were terrible DPS and had no native healing ability, but their songs made the three DPS on the team worth four and a half, more than making up for it.

The trouble is, in this game BRD's and MCN's support abilities mostly address resource management, meaning that they only boost other players' DPS when resources run low. Generally, the only places where resources run thin are in very difficult or lengthy battles. It's a bit like having accuracy on your gear; all but useless until you start challenging the toughest content.

It means that having a BRD or MCN on your team is a detriment for easy content, like dungeons or trials. Of course, content as easy as that, having a BRD or a MCN isn't going to lead to a wipe or anything, but for the min-maxer it's clearly better to bring a DRG.

[Monty]

MCH is fine where it is. I can usually parse near the top unless you have a good DRG, MNK, etc, and even then I'm not that far behind. The only thing with MCH is it requires you to be constantly watching your skill bar more than anything. There's always something ready to go, and I can guarantee most MCH don't pay nearly enough attention.

It started as no one wants MCH/BRD to every raid group doing savage has one and needs one.

[Catwho]

Considering how popular the three jobs are, I wouldn't call them a failure. Okay, machinist is certainly the least popular of the three, but I can't roll into Alex Normal without getting at least one AST as part of the healer pair.

SCH is still the most unique healer, not because of damage mitigation, but because with a good tank in a 4 man and with a good healing partner in 8 man, it can add the DPS necessary to get through fights the group might otherwise have trouble with. A friend of mine who is a career SCH can put out 400 DPS with a PLD tank, which while nowhere near a SMN, is basically adding half a DPS for free. AST was initially too weak to take over the main burden of healing, and its buffs weren't enough to make up for the loss of the SCH's DPS. That has been fixed.

[Velhart]

Fun fact about MMO's: No new class that gets released is ever properly balanced right out the door.

If you decide to immediately jump to a new job when it gets released, you need to take with a grain of salt that it may have problems at the beginning and be properly balanced with the other jobs in due time.

That being said, I jumped straight to MCH the day it was released. We definitely have no DPS issues, especially after our GB adjustment that was pretty much immediately fixed after the developers saw it did less than auto-attack damage. I can keep up with the DPS in my party just fine. I do think it has a slightly higher skill level than BRD to be efficient with the job.

One thing I can absolutely agree on is that MCH does start off meh when you first unlock it at 30. Other jobs even lower than 30 have certain skills that make the job feel real good and fun at the beginning. SE with new jobs in the future definitely need to add that certain amount of flair at the beginning to get people hooked into the job immediately. Of course at later levels the MCH starts shining and becomes very fun.

MCH end game wise is in a very good place and the Quick Reload boost helped smooth things out even more. People who complain about GB or BRD's complaining about WM from what I have seen are usually the bad players who don't know how to be mobile in between GCD's when appropriate to do so. Like Yoshi-P said, you just need to "git gud."

[Leigaon]

Well, if you weren't saying that SE was a bunch of lazy amateurs, which serves no purpose to your argument, that would've been a better start...I think you can understand that some people might think that your post was some kind of disguised troll just to throw a bunch of bad adjectives in the face of SE.

Pretty much this and the fact that this came so late that it's not talking about possible changes to the current system, it's more along the lines of "remember when things sucked? Remember? Lets discuss..talk about how horrible things were. I remember when I released jobs in a MMO they were flawless.... Remember 1.0? Lets talk about how lazy and horrible these people were..not like the things I've contributed to this game."

Things require some tweaking, what can you do? It's natural.

[RiceisNice]

...

Party composition is a very tricky thing. A DRG at this point is just as mandatory to bring to the table as a MCH/BRD because of their individual dps and the utility the bring (being the only class that can buff BRD/MCH)

I just thought MCH was done very lazily..it just looked and acted too similar to BRD in my opinion...

Also anyone think that the type of playstyle MCH and BRD bring is not really compatible with FFXIV? I mean the typical archetype of a bard-playstyle (which is what both seem to be based off of) is support. I don't see a support-type queue slot :| In my eyes, teams are essentially trashing a DPS slot in favor of making it support, thereby gimping your DPS. I've seen the DPS disparity pretty clearly in A1, where we put a MCH/BRD on one Oppressor and a DRG/BRD on the other...suffice to say the HP gap was typically <10-15% to the point where the DRG had to go and DPS theirs... I get that adding support means decreasing other aspects, like DPS, but this kind of disparity is kind of sad... I'd rather they do something to use everyone' unused stats...like give a team MP regen skill to classes that have no use for their MP and a team TP regen skill to classes that have no use for their TP...If they did this, and raised BRD DPS to the standard...it'd break the bard archetype for sure, but I just don't see "support" fitting into FFXIV...

^This is all purely my opinion

I feel like that MCH (and a bit of BRD) got a lot of wasted potential when it came to the expansion. Look at ther intiial showcasing for HW previews, I'd imagine that MCH would have gotten a much more extensive use with their ammunition, rather than having two skills in our entire moveset with and every other skill only getting a flat +20 potency buff. Then you have both jobs, quite literally, getting the exact, same functional skills which unfortunately homogenizes their base-gameplay even more.

[Obysuca]

MCH is fine where it is. I can usually parse near the top unless you have a good DRG, MNK, etc, and even then I'm not that far behind.

^ This. I'm usually near the top as mch too, probably could go higher if the "50%" was actually you know, 50% and not something like 10%. The quick reload update was nice so I can at least get a proc every 15 seconds, but theres still way too high of a chance of never procing until those 15 seconds are up. Not even kidding, before the update, there were times when I'd be stuck with no procs for the whole reload/quick reload timers. Also, weapon damage. Just because it's "support" doesn't mean the weapon damage has to be a whole 10-15 less than every other job, make it ~5 or something. It almost feels like even with an i180/i190/i200 weapon, that we have the weapon damage of an ~i160 for other jobs.

People who complain about GB or BRD's complaining about WM from what I have seen are usually the bad players who don't know how to be mobile in between GCD's when appropriate to do so. Like Yoshi-P said, you just need to "git gud."

I feel most of the people who complained about GB/WM were the spaz ones who like running around nonstop while shooting lol